[BTCC] Round Eight, Thruxton 27-28 Aug, Races 22,23&24

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If the team need to enter a driver just to retain the TBL - would Gornall offer more to the team than keeping Lloyd in the seat?

That is a very good question. There is also the manufacturer's trophy and team's title still (mathematically) up for grabs which I would imagine Lloyd has contributed a heck of a lot more to than Chilton. Lloyd is more likely to be able to score points than Gornall (right now at least, if Gornall had the opportunity to become more experienced in NGTC cars he'd be very quick, you don't become a British GT and MINI JCW champ if you are slow).

I guess though if he can't bring any money, Excelr8 probably can't fund him for two meetings.

Another pair of names to throw out there if Lloyd can't stay on - Dan Zelos and Ethan Hammerton. Zelos tested the car at Snetterton, competes for the team in the JCWs, pretty much out of title contention. Hammerton has previous BTCC experience, having stood in for drivers at the end of both the 2018 and 2020 seasons, not the quickest but seems to have backers, and also competes for Excelr8 in the JCWs.

[Evantra]

Whatever happened to Rob Smith? Thought he did a decent job in the MG, quicker than Sam Osborne if I remember. Shame he didn't get an outing in a more competitive car.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by SSmith

There is also the manufacturer's trophy and team's title still (mathematically) up for grabs which I would imagine Lloyd has contributed a heck of a lot more to than Chilton.

That's an interesting point. Looking at the points tables, it seems like Ingram and Lloyd have been the nominated pair for Hyundai/Excelr8 for most (if not all) of the season.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Whatever happened to Rob Smith? Thought he did a decent job in the MG, quicker than Sam Osborne if I remember. Shame he didn't get an outing in a more competitive car.

He seemed to disappear! I don't remember his name appearing anywhere since 2019.

I think he was regularly the quicker of the two, and was beating Hamilton, Blundell, Crees, Boardley, Rowbottom, Simpson etc. on occasion (not the biggest names but he had a worse car!)
I think both Smith and Osborne peaked at a 14th place finish - Osborne's at Snetterton, Smith's at Silverstone - and both in crazy races. I think Osborne ran softs in Snet R3 while lots of other drivers were on mediums and hards on the weekend where all drivers had to use all three compounds. Smith's was in the wet/dry race at Silverstone where Goff won for Team HARD and Moffat's undeveloped Infiniti came 2nd. Smith also had that spectacular crash out of the last corner at Oulton Park. I hope when people look back on Excelr8's BTCC successes in the future, he's remembered as their first BTCC driver.

He was pretty good in MINI JCWs before BTCC so I would imagine he would have done well in better machinery, like the Excelr8 Hyundai. Yet another BTCC one-season-wonder!

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by SSmith

He seemed to disappear! I don't remember his name appearing anywhere since 2019

Checking his facebook, he won his class in Britcar in 2020 and was aiming to be back in the BTCC in 2021. Nothing since then.

On a similar note, not heard anything from Mike Bushell in a while. We could do a whole thread on 'lost' BTCC drivers! Brett Smith, Josh Price...

[Racing Harz]

Originally Posted by Evantra

On a similar note, not heard anything from Mike Bushell in a while.

He became father a few days ago, is devepoling a app and is joking about the btcc on social media.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Checking his facebook, he won his class in Britcar in 2020 and was aiming to be back in the BTCC in 2021. Nothing since then.

Oh that's interesting, glad he did some more racing.

Originally Posted by Evantra

On a similar note, not heard anything from Mike Bushell in a while. We could do a whole thread on 'lost' BTCC drivers! Brett Smith, Josh Price...

There's definitely been a lot that have gone away in recent years!

[tux]

Weather is meant to go back to being quite hot again towards the end of the month

[S griffin]

If Lloyd does go, it will be interesting to see who replaces him. Gornall would be a good replacement considering he's already raced the car this year. Chris Smiley would be another one. Or Senna Proctor

[InYourMirrors45]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Cook nowhere and yet Plato and the Toyota with same engine do OK?

Plato pulled out a lap from now where in qualifying which enabled him to be at the sharp end and go with the pace of the leaders, he never really looked like moving forwards in any of the races. Cook similar, bar lap 1 he hardly made up any places during the races. Also worth noting that unless I’m mistaken Cook is the only M-Sport driver to have won a race this year? Granted he may have won 4 but 2 of those were in the damp/wet conditions at brands hatch and the other 2 at thruxton which I has very little to do with straight line speed as it’s all about chassis/corner momentum

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by InYourMirrors45

Plato pulled out a lap from now where in qualifying which enabled him to be at the sharp end and go with the pace of the leaders, he never really looked like moving forwards in any of the races. Cook similar, bar lap 1 he hardly made up any places during the races. Also worth noting that unless I’m mistaken Cook is the only M-Sport driver to have won a race this year? Granted he may have won 4 but 2 of those were in the damp/wet conditions at brands hatch and the other 2 at thruxton which I has very little to do with straight line speed as it’s all about chassis/corner momentum

wasnt a lap out of nowhere. plato was 7th fastest in final practice (beaten by ash hand in 6th also using the same engine) so was on the pace all day

but have a look at the toyotas also using the same engine. in the first race butcher started 26th and drove past cook to finish 15th. race two finsihed 12th and race three finished 7th. collard finished race one in 11th race two in 6th and race three 4th after a penalty.

so if the toyotas can move forward and be racy like that using the exact same engine then why cant cook.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

wasnt a lap out of nowhere. plato was 7th fastest in final practice (beaten by ash hand in 6th also using the same engine) so was on the pace all day

The single lap pace of the M-Sport is down on the other engines because they don't have a qualifying map they can use. All non M-Sport engines have a higher performance during qualifying - so comparing FP times with Q times is not comparing apples with apples.

Originally Posted by touring fan01

but have a look at the toyotas also using the same engine. in the first race butcher started 26th and drove past cook to finish 15th. race two finsihed 12th and race three finished 7th. collard finished race one in 11th race two in 6th and race three 4th after a penalty.

so if the toyotas can move forward and be racy like that using the exact same engine then why cant cook.

Because the FK8 struggles with temperatures - particularly in traffic and high ambient. Hence Plato not being able to keep up with cars ahead of him, but able to keep cars behind while he was running in clear(ish) air.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Because the FK8 struggles with temperatures - particularly in traffic and high ambient. Hence Plato not being able to keep up with cars ahead of him, but able to keep cars behind while he was running in clear(ish) air.

exactly my point!
they blame the msport engine when its actually the car thats the issue

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

exactly my point!
they blame the msport engine when its actually the car thats the issue

I think it is a combination. The M-Sport engine clearly has issues at the moment, although in fairness that is to be expected at this stage of development. The lack of a Qualifying map is one such example. Those issues are compounded by installing the engine in the FK8 chassis.

Why does Cook struggle?
He actually hasn't struggled compared to every other M-Sport engine - and is only marginally behind Butcher in results since Thruxton and has out-scored every other M-Sport driver.
He is using an engine that is hampered in qualifying sessions.
He is using an engine that does not (currently) provide the same performance as the manufacturer units in other cars.
He is in a chassis that struggles in high ambient temperatures, which exacerbates the engine issues.
He has gone into every weekend since Thruxton with a lot of HEM reduction, placing him in the pack following qualifying.

It could be seen that he is a victim of his own success in the early rounds. Had he gone into Oulton Park in 9th (Butcher, the highest other M-Sport driver before qualifying) - he might have found that the higher hybrid allocation would have given him a better qualifying result (Butcher was 2nd, Cook was 8th).
From 2nd, the weekend at Oulton Park could have been significantly different and we would not have the discussion about why his performance has dropped off.

As is stands - he is still the leading M-Sport driver in the championship, leads the Independents Trophy outright, Rich Energy BTC Racing leads the BTCC Independents Teams Championship and he is the 2nd highest scoring M-Sport driver over the last 12 rounds.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It could be seen that he is a victim of his own success in the early rounds. Had he gone into Oulton Park in 9th (Butcher, the highest other M-Sport driver before qualifying) - he might have found that the higher hybrid allocation would have given him a better qualifying result (Butcher was 2nd, Cook was 8th).
From 2nd, the weekend at Oulton Park could have been significantly different and we would not have the discussion about why his performance has dropped off.

at oulton park cook was the quickest of everyone in the first practice and then literally went slower the rest of the weekend and couldn’t even match his first practice time

and since oulton he has not been the fastest msport engined car

so its clear they have lost their way with that car

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

at oulton park cook was the quickest of everyone in the first practice and then literally went slower the rest of the weekend and couldn’t even match his first practice time

and since oulton he has not been the fastest msport engined car

so its clear they have lost their way with that car

He was 17th in FP2 that weekend. Are you suggesting they 'lost their way' between FP1 and FP2 at Oulton?

His FP1 time was set when ambient temperature was lower than any other session since. And do we know for certain what every other car was doing in terms of absolute pace?

Yes, it's true he hasn't been the fastest M-Sport car since Oulton. He's only been the second fastest. The same car can not be the fastest all season long - otherwise people would complain that the BTCC is boring and predictable.

[S griffin]

There are still things that can affect a performance of a certain cars in the BTCC. Like temperatures or whether the car is track specific. Sometimes it is a mystery though

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

He was 17th in FP2 that weekend. Are you suggesting they 'lost their way' between FP1 and FP2 at Oulton?

His FP1 time was set when ambient temperature was lower than any other session since. And do we know for certain what every other car was doing in terms of absolute pace?

your kidding me arent you.
first practice was 17c and second practice was 18c
are you trying to tell me that plus one degree in relatively low ambient temps caused the car to go from first to 17th.

his time in first practice would have put him 2nd in second practice and was quicker than he qualified at (and qualfying was only one degree higher than practice)

so i think we can forget the high ambient temps as an excuse for oulton park

At croft he qualified only the seventh fastest msport engines car
and croft was the exact same temps (18c) so we can forget high ambient temps as an excuse there too.


they simply lost their way since oulton and havent yet recovered
maybe thruxton will see him return to form

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

your kidding me arent you.
first practice was 17c and second practice was 18c
are you trying to tell me that plus one degree in relatively low ambient temps caused the car to go from first to 17th.

his time in first practice would have put him 2nd in second practice and was quicker than he qualified at (and qualfying was only one degree higher than practice)

so i think we can forget the high ambient temps as an excuse for oulton park

At croft he qualified only the seventh fastest msport engines car
and croft was the exact same temps (18c) so we can forget high ambient temps as an excuse there too.

As I've said before, there are many factors that affect performance, and temperature is one of them.

Looking at Q is always difficult to determine what other cars are doing.
Cook's qualifying time at Oulton was only good enough for P10, but would have been P1 in FP1. So they still had the same pace in the car, just that every non M-Sport car had a qualifying map, and Cook had no hybrid.

At Croft, the biggest reason Cook qualified off the pace was that his car was damaged. Not because they had 'lost their way'.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

At Croft, the biggest reason Cook qualified off the pace was that his car was damaged. Not because they had 'lost their way'.

in first practice at croft he was 14th
in second practice he was 18th
so I guess his car must have been ‘damaged’ in those two sessions too

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

in first practice at croft he was 14th
in second practice he was 18th
so I guess his car must have been ‘damaged’ in those two sessions too

As I have already said, FP times are not representative because you don't know what programs each driver is running, or what tyres they are on.

Although for reference, Cook only set 4 lap times in FP1 and only 3 lap times in FP2. Maybe there was an issue with the car they were struggling with?

In fact, in Cook's own words - "At times this weekend we just engineered away from what’s been a really good car". So the lap times they set in FP1 and FP2 were a result of changes that the team recognised as making the car slower.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

In fact, in Cook's own words - "At times this weekend we just engineered away from what’s been a really good car". So the lap times they set in FP1 and FP2 were a result of changes that the team recognised as making the car slower.

and thats exactly what i said before!
"they simply lost their way"

[crmalcolm]

TV coverage details

Qualifying LIVE: Saturday 27 August
ITV.com/BTCC from 15:20

Raceday LIVE: Sunday 28 August
ITV4 & ITV4 HD 11:15-18:45
ITV4 +1 12:15-19:45

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

TV coverage details

Qualifying LIVE: Saturday 27 August
ITV.com/BTCC from 15:20

Raceday LIVE: Sunday 28 August
ITV4 & ITV4 HD 11:15-18:45
ITV4 +1 12:15-19:45

Oh no on two ITV channels again - how will I ever figure it out

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Oh no on two ITV channels again - how will I ever figure it out

Think you misread! Just on ITV4