Should bi-directional telementry be banned?

[neilap]

That was not nice. I agree though that it would be a waste of resourses.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by paulzinho
Ban electronics, bi directional telemetry,TC, LC , bodywork flaps, chicanes!

Bring back slicks, manual gearboxes, fat rear tyres, turbos, decent tracks, lower noses, not the raised ones.

Then we may see some proper racing with drivers driving the cars!!!

Maybe they should just race carts? Or you'd perhaps like to see them in stock cars?

F1 is high tech - always has been, always should be... All those things you mentioned are what make F1 interesting to me.

And... of all the lame anti-Ferrari bs that has come out of this forum (and there has been alot), accusing Ferrari of somehow blowing up JPM's engine using telemetry hacking takes the cake. Congratulations

[paulzinho]

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya


Maybe they should just race carts? Or you'd perhaps like to see them in stock cars?

I wouldn't say that, I just want to see more emphasis placed on the driver, theres still room for technology but in different areas, ie turbos, manual gearboxes

We're coming to the point where we should be putting software engineers on the podium for writing reams of code, that shouldn't be what F1 is about. Not to me anyway.

[Inigo Montoya]

But where do you draw the line? What is "too" high tech?

Remember, this high-tech stuff eventually trickles down into the cars we end up buying, making them a good deal easier to drive and safer (perhaps even faster).

If they can't play with the technology at the supposed technological pinnacle of racing, where CAN they play with it?

[paulzinho]

Thats a fair point, but from my point of view there should be more emphasis placed on the drivers.

But then again, I do prefer the good old days.

[Glen]

I haven't seen any evidence that proves that the driver contribution was more significant in the so-called good old days. We still see a contrast between drivers in the same car. We still see that rain separates the men from the boys. We still find that only the very best drivers can stay on top form for an entire season.

If you accept that engineering has always played a large part in F1 (your beloved turbos were after all a technical innovation) why make any distinction between mechanical and electronic engineering?

[neilap]

These drivers are in the pinnacle of motor sport. They paid their dues with manual transmissions coming up. I feel that now more than ever drivers make the difference. All they have to do now is get in and drive the hell out of the cars. Then again this is coming from a person that cares more about the cars than the drivers. I admire the drivers yes, but quite honestly in my opinion its the cars that make them look good. MS, JPM and so on are only as good as the tools they are given.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by neilap
MS, JPM and so on are only as good as the tools they are given.

i disagree, admittidly they are hampered by their mechinary, but they also make a difference, put tgf or jpm in a minardi and it will be driven quicker than it does by the current minardi drivers (sorry all you webber fans!)

[neilap]

Reminds me of my "does the car make the man, or does the man make the car" post. Yes there is a balance. I suppose the perfect balance right now is at Ferrari.

It’s just that MS has not impressed me at all this year. He essentially took JPM out of two races, and he has by far the best car on the grid. His success in the last two years is because of the car, IMO. I feel most, if not all, drivers on the grid could win in a Ferrari. Put it this way in a one on one battle with MS in a Jordan and Sato in a Ferrari I feel Sato would kick his ass (ok if he does not crash).
Sorry I know this is about telemetry...

[freud]

Neilap.... YES!!!!

Imho its:
70% car - 30% driver

[paulzinho]

Originally posted by Glen
I haven't seen any evidence that proves that the driver contribution was more significant in the so-called good old days.

Well what do the drivers do nowadays, floor it at the start, gear changes are automatic, they just stee the car, accelerate an dbrake (to put it simply).

Gone are the days where throttle control was important, where drivers had to change gear manually, requiring more car control and precision, gone are the days where they had to judge wheelspin at the start, pull out of corners without flooring it.

Ask yourself, which of these is harder? Which is a better representation of driver skill?

[Red]

Originally posted by paulzinho
Gone are the days where throttle control was important, where drivers had to change gear manually, requiring more car control and precision, gone are the days where they had to judge wheelspin at the start, pull out of corners without flooring it.

Ask yourself, which of these is harder? Which is a better representation of driver skill?

Err, I don't know.... considering the countless variables that they have to tune during the set-up. Anyway, Niki Lauda just recently proved that a monkey (even a multiple champion and skilled one) cannot drive a Formula 1 car, even though the general opinion is different.

PS: I forgot where I recently read that Fangio used to say (in the good old days) that the percentage of success were 50% car, 25% driver and 25% luck.

[f1manoz]

One thing I want to see banned is all this electronic help from the pitlane. Get rid of it. The car should not be played around with WHILE IT'S GOING AROUND THE TRACK!!!

Also ban semi-automatic transmissions and let's return to manual transmission. I want to see the odd missed gear change. That is how a lot of passes used to come about anyway. It also takes a lot of strength to man-handle a car around Monaco with one hand on the wheel and one on the gear lever.

As for bringing back slicks, grooved tyred are so grippy nowadays I don't think there is much difference. Lap times are exactly the same as they were, if not faster, than in 1997.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by paulzinho


Well what do the drivers do nowadays, floor it at the start, gear changes are automatic, they just stee the car, accelerate an dbrake (to put it simply).

But remember, my friend, that they are going significantly faster than they did in "the good old days." Approaching the limits of human tolerance, actually, on some of the corners. I don't think the cars are as easy to drive as you make them out to be.

Not having to worry so much about throttle control and gear selection allows the driver to concentrate on making the car go FAST!

Besides, on technical circuits, the downshifts are still manual.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya


But remember, my friend, that they are going significantly faster than they did in "the good old days." Approaching the limits of human tolerance, actually, on some of the corners. I don't think the cars are as easy to drive as you make them out to be.

That's an interesting point. Anybody got the stats to back this up? IMO the fastest cornering cars came from the ground effects era. The cars may not have been as quick in a straight line but they didn't slow down very much either.

Are the cars quicker now than at the end of the slick tyred period?

[P1 Senna]

By all means, get rid of bi-directional adjustment. It has too many insidious possibilities, and further handicaps the smaller teams.

An example of insidious use of this technology? Let's say your car is leading a prestigious GP (Monaco). And let's say that your car is being doggedly pursued by a couple of mean, nasty rivals (JPM and the guy who needs team orders to win). So you want to back these pursuers off a bit - send the command from the pits to activate the Smoke Puffer (proprietary McLaren device), and problem solved.

[Red]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett


That's an interesting point. Anybody got the stats to back this up? IMO the fastest cornering cars came from the ground effects era. The cars may not have been as quick in a straight line but they didn't slow down very much either.

Are the cars quicker now than at the end of the slick tyred period?

Tried to do some statistics and took several pole-position times. (If someone is interested try www.forix.com at the “circuits” section.) The layout of the circuits have changed, but since most of the changes were intended to actually slow down the cars I believe that it’s pretty conclusive:

A1-Ring: 	1997/1’10’’304 (slicks)			2002/1’08’’082
Barcelona	1997/1’16’’525 (slicks)			2002/1’16’’364
Hockenheim	1991/1’37’’087 (3.5L, no chicanes)	2002/1’38’’117
Imola		1994/1’21’’548 (3.5L, no chicanes)	2002/1’21’’091

[f1manoz]

Don't show the FIA that!

[Red]

Oh well, they already noticed that last year, much to their dismay.....

PS: Given my skills in "10-10ths predictions competition", in which I solely occupy 43rd place, for Hockenheim I hinted this year's pole time. Shall read 2001 instead of 2002. Sorry.

[Glen]

Originally posted by paulzinho


Well what do the drivers do nowadays, floor it at the start, gear changes are automatic, they just stee the car, accelerate an dbrake (to put it simply).

Gone are the days where throttle control was important, where drivers had to change gear manually, requiring more car control and precision, gone are the days where they had to judge wheelspin at the start, pull out of corners without flooring it.

Ask yourself, which of these is harder? Which is a better representation of driver skill?

This question is very much more complicated than will be convenient for you. You deliberately leave out many factors which don't suit you. It suits your agenda to believe that it's all so easy now, and that the driver contribution is minimised... but you willfully ignore the obvious - ie. each element that is made more easy frees up another area for greater input.

Power steering is a good example. You might argue that a non-power-steered car is harder to drive than the modern equivalent, but in doing so you disingenuously igore the fact that with power steering large amounts of extra potential is unlocked... Rather than muscling the car around as best you can it can be placed millimetre-perfect (if you have the skill) and new lines are possible. Combine power steering with semi-auto change (or fully auto for that matter) and left-foot braking, and suddenly rather than braking and steering and accelerating in individual actions all of those things can be blended into one - driving styles can evolve to benefit from the ability of the car, rather than simply to try and defeat the restrictions of the car.

To take your Luddite suggestions to the same extreme in the other direction (since you feel free to take such liberties with the arguments, I don't see why I should hold back) do you think we should strip away "driver aids" such as disk brakes which don't overheat and fade, radial tyres which are grippier and more progressive (big contradiction here - the historic F1 fans all want slicks back, which are driver aids and much easier to handle than grooves), solidly engineered engines that can take punishment, rev limiters... Too many innovations fall into this category to list here - you get the picture.

If what you suggest were true we would see less difference between team-mates than was the case before (a point I made before but you conveniently ignored) - but we don't. Also conveniently ignored was my question about why you feel electronic engineering to be so evil, whereas mechanical developments are somehow ok.

I invite you to think of a more rounded and logical argument.

[paulzinho]

I appreciate the fact that the driver aids allow the driver to push the car harder, from what I can understand this is because anty mistakes are less likely to be punished, for example you can no longer miss a gear shift these days.

The arguement you use that the use of driver aids frees up other areas may be true but to me a skillful driver needs to have all round qualities not those focused in particular areas. It is far more challenging to operate several things well than to focus on a smaller number and do them well.

As for the fat slicks, I like to see the cars man handled, agression resulting in speed. Again from what I understand and have seen this was much more possible in the days of the fat slicks ( from what i've seen on videos anyway, there was some great shots of cars sliding out of casino at Monaco, FANTASTIC!!)

I agree also that my earlier post is a simple way of what can be perceived, I used it as an example to show how certain skills have disappeared.

[Glen]

paulzinho

I love to see cars sliding too - and fortunately the new tyres seem to have a lot more progression beyond the limit, so here's hoping for more of that.

I may have been a little "assertive" yesterday - glad you've been big enough to take no offence!

I think all camps probably agree that more mechanical and less aero grip will give us more "drivey" cars, but there again those designers always find something extra eventually to get us back to square 1.

[paulzinho]

Thats OK!

It seems we have our opinions and are both reluctant to budge!!!

And yes I agree we will always see progression, some cases I believe it is for the better and is good for the sport and in others not so.

But its not the end of the world!!