Round 2: the Long Beach Grand Prix

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I'm not so certain it is really a big deal. If a series completely went in a new direction, it wouldn't be hard to include both GTE spec cars, and GT3 spec cars in the same category, until the GTE cars were phased out.

And if gt3 replace GTEs you would get much less manufacturer involvement, and the series would be just another bop turd...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by arakis

And if gt3 replace GTEs you would get much less manufacturer involvement, and the series would be just another bop turd...

Like it isn't a BOP turd now, with all the waivers etc... The ALMS only has two manufacturer entries now... so by much less, do you mean one?

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Like it isn't a BOP turd now, with all the waivers etc... The ALMS only has two manufacturer entries now... so by much less, do you mean one?

It ain't perfect but its a hellofa lot better then GT3.

Simple fact is noone gives **** who won a GT3 championship... while GTE championships are still prestigious.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by arakis

It ain't perfect but its a hellofa lot better then GT3.

Simple fact is noone gives **** who won a GT3 championship... while GTE championships are still prestigious.

That's BS. GT-Masters and British GT are top-notch national championships, and I think Blancpain is right up there with LMS.

I mean, if GTE-titles are so prestigous, how come hardly anybody is fielding these cars anymore in LMS (and to a slightly lesser degree in WEC?)

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

Oh, no doubt. It's very painful to see, especially as the GT racing has been so good recently, and in years past there have been some good - if manufactured (ahem RS Spyder vs R10) - battles at the front.

Jonerz, I agree with what you say, and the ridiculous spindoctory emanating from Atherton makes it all the more worse, but I got thinking: what racing fan - or maybe more broadly - sports fan, likes the people running their sport of choice? Go read what the Europeans say about SRO in GT1/3 land, or Bernard in the F1 subforum, or the ACO, or Tony George, or the France family... I watch a ****load of hockey, and pretty much every single NHL fan hates Gary Bettman more than they hate Satan. David Stern and Bud Selig have both been controversial in their tenures, to say the least. Of the big four here in North America, the only decent commish I can think of is Roger Goodell; across the pond, the FA seem to run the EPL pretty well, but I'm mostly speaking outta my ass about soccer.

This is far from the gamut of sports/motorsports, but it's a decent sample I'd say. I am in no way trying to dull the fact that ALMS management are incompetent, but rather trying to illuminate that it seems to be a common (and hilarious!) theme those that run sport seem to be derided by the fans of said sport; and maybe the derision increases with the hardcoreness of the fan, but that's another thought.

We were pretty happy with Juergen Barth running things in GT-Masters, but apparently he has (been?!) stepped down over the winter.

Also, the Brits generally seem to be pretty big on the way Alan Gow runs things for BTCC.

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by arakis

It ain't perfect but its a hellofa lot better then GT3.

Simple fact is noone gives **** who won a GT3 championship... while GTE championships are still prestigious.

Except in North America (since this *is* an ALMS thread), where nobody outside of forum anoraks and a small number of manufacturer PR/marketing wonks gives a damn about any of it.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by extramundane

Except in North America (since this *is* an ALMS thread), where nobody outside of forum anoraks and a small number of manufacturer PR/marketing wonks gives a damn about any of it.

heheh, touche

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

wouldn't it be better if this were just a GT series and there were magically 2-3X as many GT cars? Utter fantasy, but that's what my heart desires.

Prototypes are a different beast. Even the most ignorant spectator recognizes the difference between a Lola and a pedestrian Porsche. If you like GTs, then watch the Conti Challenge or the SCCA World Challenge, there's plenty of them there.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That's BS. GT-Masters and British GT are top-notch national championships, and I think Blancpain is right up there with LMS.

No all-pro lineups, no top-notch to me.

[Speed-King]

All pro-lineups are the exception not the rule in sportscar history....

[NaBUru38]

Yes, but a "top-notch" championship needs all-pro lineups, perhaps not the full grid, but yes on the front half.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Yes, but a "top-notch" championship needs all-pro lineups, perhaps not the full grid, but yes on the front half.

Eh, when you have 40 or 50 cars in a single class, the top 10 or top 12 should be enough to make it top notch.(or good enough to get a killer TV-deal, anyway )

[Purist]

Part of the issue is also that some series' rules require pro-am line-ups, and I would not consider those series to be top-tier.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Purist

Part of the issue is also that some series' rules require pro-am line-ups, and I would not consider those series to be top-tier.

Going by that, the only top tier sportscar series are Grand Am, Super GT and French/German/BritishGT... everything else at least has a class with a pro-am requirement.

[Purist]

I was more thinking of single-class championships (mainly FIA GT3 right when I posted that).

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Purist

I was more thinking of single-class championships (mainly FIA GT3 right when I posted that).

Right, but that's really the only one of the GT3-series with a really strict pro-am requirement. BES has the Pro-Cup and ADAC GT-Masters will put some weight in your car if you go all pro, but not really enough to keep you from winning.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Going by that, the only top tier sportscar series are Grand Am, Super GT and French/German/BritishGT... everything else at least has a class with a pro-am requirement.

Platinum-Platinum lineups aren't allowed in the French GT Tour, ADAC GT Masters and British GT.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Yes, but a "top-notch" championship needs all-pro lineups, perhaps not the full grid, but yes on the front half.

WEC Full Season Entry: 13/30 All-Pro line-ups
ELMS Paul Ricard Entry: 3/21 All-Pro line-ups
ALMS Long Beach Entry: 11/36 All Pro Line-ups

That number is only going to decrease as we head towards the future. I doubt an already small audience is going to care about the driver lineups if Sports Car racing is indeed their favourite motorsport. To be a "top notch" championship in sports car racing or motorsports in general you need large grids (cough...blancpain), professional drivers (plenty in these series, just not all pro LINEUPS), large variety of cars that people actually care about (cough... GT2/E and GT3), and decent local media coverage (cough...ADAC GT Masters)

If people want to watch racing based on the driver talent level, then F1 is by far the series for them.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

WEC Full Season Entry: 13/30 All-Pro line-ups
ELMS Paul Ricard Entry: 3/21 All-Pro line-ups
ALMS Long Beach Entry: 11/36 All Pro Line-ups

That number is only going to decrease as we head towards the future. I doubt an already small audience is going to care about the driver lineups if Sports Car racing is indeed their favourite motorsport. To be a "top notch" championship in sports car racing or motorsports in general you need large grids (cough...blancpain), professional drivers (plenty in these series, just not all pro LINEUPS), large variety of cars that people actually care about (cough... GT2/E and GT3), and decent local media coverage (cough...ADAC GT Masters)

If people want to watch racing based on the driver talent level, then F1 is by far the series for them.

I hate to defend NASCAR, but the Sprint Cup series might have something to say about that. If it isn't level with F1, it is very, very close. Oh wait, semantics... Sprint Cup is scripted, not real racing. My mistake.

Chris

[courageous]

.

[courageous]

British Touring Cars - 0/24 pro drivers (even Plato brings money, albeit not his own)
Formula 1 - 8/24 drivers bringing money
WRC/IRC Rally - maybe 1 or 2 fully paid pro drivers between the 2 series

Having pay drivers is not a factor in a championship being considered 'top draw'


In endurance racing, pay drivers actually provide extra seats for pro drivers, everywhere else they take them.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by courageous

British Touring Cars - 0/24 pro drivers (even Plato brings money, albeit not his own)
Formula 1 - 8/24 drivers bringing money
WRC/IRC Rally - maybe 1 or 2 fully paid pro drivers between the 2 series

Having pay drivers is not a factor in a championship being considered 'top draw'


In endurance racing, pay drivers actually provide extra seats for pro drivers, everywhere else they take them.

The debate isn't about drivers who bring money. It's about drivers who don't make their money through professional Motorsport (whether they are paid by a team, bring sponsors, or market family businesses) and are generally slower than professionals.

Frankly, it's is a conversation I don't care to get hung up on. The way racing has moved over the last few years even the best drivers in the world are no longer draws. When you can shoot holes in most of the Formula 1 grid, when NASCAR grids are full of boring cookie cutter drivers (who match most of the tracks on their schedule) and IndyCar has faded so far into irrelevance that the men who challenge the 500 every year are for the most part nobodies, you better have something else to attract fans.

F1 has name recognition and prestige in the title of F1 World Champion. It is still perceived as being the ultimate form of Motorsport by non-fans worldwide. It is a huge draw amongst car guys and sports fans in Europe and less so in America (because we're large enough to make our own fun and not rely on a championship that may come once a year when the politics are right and races mostly before 9:00am on Sundays). There is no need for lawyers and CEOs to race F1 cars. Plus the cars, though sanitized, are still immensely difficult to drive and insanely expensive to run. If you want to put your name on the side of the car you are better off sharing the financial responsibility with a "pro" driver who brings money.

NASCAR has had 50 years of consistency and that allowed its financial lead to stretch far beyond the rest of American racing, particularly in the last ten to fifteen years. NASCAR's marketing machine is the best funded, most well oiled and has the most defined direction in American racing and so it has risen to the status of top American Motorsport. The hordes of American kids who want auto be pro drivers see NASCAR as the pinnacle or at least the place where it is reasonable to assume they can most easily make money on merit.

The ALMS lacks NASCAR ownership and relies solely on itself for money and marketing. No one will give the ALMS Rolex or Camel Cigarette sponsorship so they better work on bringing in sponsors or (bias upcoming) the most interesting and fan-drawing race cars in the country will remain a strange little niche sport with grumpy fans who claim to know how to run the sport better than management. Gentleman drivers have a long history in the top tier of American racing anyway, and while the ALMS had a golden opportunity to close the door on IndyCar and cement it's place as the (distant) runner up in American racing passed the series by. Still, I can't see an ALMS grid without gentleman drivers, it is just sports car racing's deal.

IndyCar, the sport was ruined by the split and the 500 was very seriously wounded. With innovation, track records, and the household gladiator-names disappearing incoming money has left with the eyeballs. Indianapolis still gets 4 ratings IIRC and is enough to retain sponsors, even for full seasons in some cases. The sponsors aren't there for a Pat Patrick to take a chance on a California kid who was good in sports cars to lead his program, that California kid would have to bring money. Penske and Ganassi are motorsports empires and share sponsors across a number of platforms. There isn't nearly the activation from the names on the side of the cars that there was in the heyday of the sport in the late 80's through the late 90's. The sponsors for the rest of the series are hard to come by and for the most part are brought by the drivers. The IndyCar Gris is the strongest in the IRL's history and it seems the European model of drivers brining money has found its way to North America and someone who brings money is no longer assumed to be an amateur or "gentleman" driver.

Chris

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

the European model of drivers bringing money has found its way to North America

Auto racing in Europe is a white-collar sport, they race Porsches and BMWs. In North America it's a blue-collar sport, they race small-block Chevys and Fords. This is generalized of course but my history of watching the types of people that get into racing on both continents it's essentially the truth. Once Indycar removed itself from that blue-collar dynamic in the late '80s/early '90s that's why NASCAR became #1 in black and white to me in a nutshell. If you think it should've no longer been blue-collar, great, but part of doing that is you lessen your series' appeal to the people in the United States that like auto racing. On that being the way to go, if you read the lower formulae boards here even British F3 is dying because they've ran out of people willing to pay so much for the seats.

Now on the blue- and white-collar thng, sportscars are even more out of touch than Indycars are.

sportscar racing it's always going to have a bunch of rich guys with no business on the racetrack running around 5 seconds off the pace of the class leader, that's been the raceform's structure since the beginning of time; when you base your series around expensive cars and zero purse money and the odd factory entrant combined with little media coverage, you're only going to have a few that are out and out diehard racecar drivers that can swing it around a corner, the rest are going to a businessman with money to kill on a hobby otherwise the sport can't exist because that's the only way it can pay for itself.

and someone who brings money is no longer assumed to be an amateur or "gentleman" driver.

For people that know how everything works I think they do. I give James Jakes just as much respect as I did Milka Duno (who started out in sportscars by the way).

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

For people that know how everything works I think they do. I give James Jakes just as much respect as I did Milka Duno (who started out in sportscars by the way).

And what of Rubens Barrichello, Alex Tagliani (Barracuda Networks isn't his, but Bowers & Wilkins and his presenting sponsors from '10 and '11, and in Canada Hotwheels help him buy rides in the sport), Helio Castroneves, (until this year when he got the GoDaddy seat) James Hinchcliffe, (partially - since losing 7/11 at Andretti) Tony Kanaan, Oriol Servia and Graham Rahal? And that is just off of the top of my head.

There are drivers who I consider second tier like Mike Conway, Takuma Sato, and Charlie Kimball who are likely only in the sport because of the right connections and checkbooks. Taku has a couple poles, Conway is a GPLB winner and Kimball could be one of the next great American drivers if he figures out the new car.

On your point of blue collar vs. white collar, IndyCar/CART never fully divorced itself from the blue collar. Up until recently Marlboro and Miller were big partners, Budweiser and Molsons were key team, series, and race partners. I think IndyCar priced themselves out of a lot of homes with over expensive grandstand, paddock and even general admission prices. However NASCAR is making a lot of the same mistakes. Fortunately NASCAR has a fabulous marketing department, one direction (NASCAR-first), three major network deals that provide easy to access to the average fan's TV screen on Sunday afternoons (at consistent times) and NASCAR has never experienced a "break the thing down and start again" moment the way IndyCar and sports cars have a dozen times.

Chris

[Fogelhund]

Niki Lauda started out as a ride buyer...

[cmk]

So too people like Peter Revson, it's a great point. Being monied does not actually make you slow, particularly if you are fortunate enough to start racing earlier in life. Johnny Dumfries is a good sportscar example of a quick and wealthy man, his 'last name' is from his title!