OWRS: ChampCar will go ahead in 2004

[Tim Northcutt]

According to reports I read today, the meeting on Dec. 19 has been cancelled...that's what the Indy Star reported toda anyway...

This looks like the only way out...

And it will either happen quickly , or it is going to me a real mess that will do nothing more than make a bunch or lawyers rich...

and frustrate the hell out of us...the fans...

[macdaddy]

Regarding the engines...
I find it hard to believe that anybody other than Ford/Cosworth actually owns them. It's my understanding that F/C does the tuning and rebuilds. It cost alot of dollars to develop those powerplants, and nobody's gonna just put them into the open market. What would prevent, say KIA or Chevrolet, from buying one and tearing it down? I'm willing to bet that they're simply leased to CART.

[carsten66]

Engines... one more point: Cosworth (and Lola) a threatened by a CART crash and it may have a big impact on the Britain-based Cosworth Engineering, which makes the cars' engines (and the chassis manufacturer Lola Cars) but also in the US, where they have around 70 people working at their base in Torrance, California, preparing the engines for Cart. – So, I think, it 's a very important piece of business for both companies... and they will have more than a huge interest that plan B (or C) of the OWRS will work out...

[Fogelhund]

Originally posted by macdaddy
Regarding the engines...
I find it hard to believe that anybody other than Ford/Cosworth actually owns them. It's my understanding that F/C does the tuning and rebuilds. It cost alot of dollars to develop those powerplants, and nobody's gonna just put them into the open market. What would prevent, say KIA or Chevrolet, from buying one and tearing it down? I'm willing to bet that they're simply leased to CART.

That is a bet you would lose. They indeed bought the engines, and now OWN them.

[Ian-S]

Originally posted by Fogelhund
That is a bet you would lose. They indeed bought the engines, and now OWN them.

Which means that, if they are, they are an asset of CART.
Assets will be sold by the Administrator (Bankrupcy Court) to the highest bidder, and I don't think anybody else would really be interested in buying the engines.

All OWRS need to run the series next year, is engines, and a championship permit, they could buy both from the Administrator, or buy them themselves from the respective supplier/authority.

The only downside of this is TV coverage and events, they would need to be negotiated from scratch.

OWRS don't need to, and never have had to buy CART to run a championship.

Forget the racing side for a second, just go and look at the procedure of what happens when a company goes bust, that'll tell you enough about what will happen.

The only advantage that OWRS had by buying CART, is that the events and championship permit was already set in stone, having to negotiate these from afresh by starting a new company/championship won't cause a problem.

[dirtfan]

Do you REALLY believe that CART owns the engines outright, with no strings attached? Heck, the crews weren't even allowed to open these sealed engines and look inside, and now you think Cosworth's going to allow somebody to buy them and steal their technology?
Worse yet, what if TG bought them all.
There's talk of the assets being worth $2 million, that puts the engines worth less than $20,000 each. Can't buy a Gaerte Sprint engine for twice that much!

[indycool]

CART OWNS the engines, per its SEC quarterly filings and annual report.

As sgw2 pointed out, servicing the engines is a Cosworth job for which CART pays additionally.

It could be said that the engines aren't worth much because they have no place else to go. It could also be said that race cars aren't going to go very fast without engines. So, their worth teeter-totters on those two facts.

CART doesn't owe the Mexican government. GRAND, Forsythe's company run by Heitzler in Mexico to promote the Monterrey race, owes $2 million to the State of Nuevo Leon on its deal for use of Fundidora Park.

[Fogelhund]

If it goes to bankruptcy court, before a purchase of assets, there would be no 04' season. In essence, we will likely know by Monday whether this continues to move forward or not. In reality, this should be accepted, though we don't know what steps other parties may take, after the fact to stop it.

CART needs a bit more then just engines and a Championship permit. I believe the assets are described elsewhere, but such things as FIA sanction, "CART" naming rights and all privelges associated with such, promotors agreements....

[indycool]

Fogelhund, understand and agree. Question: What is a "championship permit?" Is that the FIA sanction?

[gttouring]

does any series really need an FIA sanction?
it is simply for i suppose respect, but if a series like CART would go forward and race whereever and when ever with their equipment wouldn't it get the fans and TV deals it does anyway- what does the FIA really have to do with it.
I realize they set a standard for safety and procedure, as the ACO-SCCA-NASA-ASA-NASCAR does but NASCAR has grown without FIA care or competition permits, so what is the deal, and why does th FIA stick its nose everywhere and why does everyone care (outside of F1 and its associated feeders)
If I recall the FIA gave trouble to the JGTC for running a 'national' series outside of the coutries political boundries, when they Raced at Malaysia and used it as a points round for the series...

[dirtfan]

The FIA sticks it's nose in because the French like to feel important.

Cal Poly University owns its campus, but if they try to sell it or even stop the Arabian Horse breeding program, it reverts to the Kellogg heirs. It's possible to own something but not own it unconditionally!

[Flatspot]

I'm sure C^RT owns the engines and Cosworth owns the "intellectual property" contained therein. Reality is that these engines is now a few years old techno wise. Many of the engineers on pit lane were inside these engines before the became spec and sealed. These engines are detuned for longevity. I guess what I'm saying is, yes these engines are very fast and sound very cool, but, they are not magic or very propitary at this stage in the game. If someone else got there hands on one they really wouldn't learn much. They might be better off just hiring the right engineers away.

[gttouring]

Old, and detuned or not these engines are stars.
The torque and HP figures available are incredible the longevity is stuff of legend, many engine builders and formulae can learn much from the Cosworth Champcar engine program.

[indycool]

Flatspot, CART/OWRS is at a point right now where beggars can't be choosers as far as engines go. If they're going to start a racing series in April at Long Beach, no one else has time to build and test a new engine to satisfy ANYBODY's ultimate wishes.

[BobbyB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dirtfan
Do you REALLY believe that CART owns the engines outright, with no strings attached? Heck, the crews weren't even allowed to open these sealed engines and look inside, and now you think Cosworth's going to allow somebody to buy them and steal their technology?

Worse yet, what if TG bought them all.

What a tremendous "sour-grapes" coup that would be for Tony! OWRS had better watch out for a surprise such as this if there is to be an auction of assets- particularly engines.

[Flatspot]

Maybe I was misunderstood. I am certainly not taking anything away from the Cosworth engine. I love it and hope it remains as the series powerplant. I was just responding to the idea some have put forward that they are very trick and cutting edge and the notion that if they fell into the wrong hands it would be a terrible thing for Cosworth. Personally, I just don't beleive that because so many people on pit road have been inside that engine since it was originally designed. In other words there aren't many secrets inside it.

Now, if TG was somehow able to by them just to shut C^RT down, that would suck.

[indycool]

I strongly believe that TG is not going to involve himself in this tangle in any way. It's up to OWRS to scam a way to get the engines if it's going to have a series.

[Ian-S]

Originally posted by indycool
Fogelhund, understand and agree. Question: What is a "championship permit?" Is that the FIA sanction?

Over here (UK), the MSA gives Championship Permits out to National Championships, the FIA to International Championships, in Germany ADAC license National etc. etc.

But in USA, I think it's different, I think CART sanction themselves.

But, do you really think that they havn't already planned for this (OWRS that is)?

As soon as CART goes into Administration, there's nothing to stop OWRS going to Cosworth, leasing some engines, going to IMSA and getting a championship sanctioned, and going to the existing tracks and offering their "new" championship as an alternative event, read any contract, be it employment or supply, and it has a get out clause usually something like "this agreement becomes null and void should either party enter Administration or file for Bankrupcy".

They only have one problem, time.

[indycool]

I believe CART is already an ACCUS member, and hence, an FIA member, although I don't understand the term "Administration" in this context. Does anyone know it that's assignable or transferrable with change of ownership? I think it was in the case of John Bishop to Andy Evans to Don Panoz at IMSA.

[Flatspot]

Originally posted by indycool
I strongly believe that TG is not going to involve himself in this tangle in any way.

I absolutely agree. He has his own issues to deal with without getting into C^RT's problems too.

[dirtfan]

Last time back to my earlier question, you can get a cell phone or satellite TV system FREE!, if you sign a contract. Quit early and you owe an early termination fee. Cosworth gave the engines at cost in return for a 2 year maintainance and advertising contract. CART is in effect reneging on the contract, couldn't Cosworth attach the engines for breach of contract? More furballs.

[Ian-S]

Originally posted by dirtfan
Last time back to my earlier question, you can get a cell phone or satellite TV system FREE!, if you sign a contract. Quit early and you owe an early termination fee. Cosworth gave the engines at cost in return for a 2 year maintainance and advertising contract. CART is in effect reneging on the contract, couldn't Cosworth attach the engines for breach of contract? More furballs.

You'll probably find that's tied into the contract somewhere.

[muggle not]

The vote has been delayed until wednesday.

http://www.champweb.net/

[paul-collins]

Nice. Did they do that unilaterally, or did OWRS grant them a reprieve? (Champweb doesn't say)

[Fogelhund]

Champweb has learned that the Board of Directors vote to approve or disapprove of the bankruptcy of CART has been delayed until this Wednesday, December 10th. Stay tuned...

It says nothing about approving or disapproving of the sale of assets though.... one can only wonder.