Is Rear Wheel Drive on the way out?

[ss_collins]

nope those old escorts that rally (and make up a large part of my job) are slowly fading as everyone is buying evo's and 205's

[Alpina]

Well Mr Collins on last weeks Granite City Mk2 escorts were second only to Subarus

[GTV27]

Are the days of RWD numbered?

Maybe for cost conscious, vanilla flavoured, day to day, boring, drive to work type cars, but for ultimate performance or driving enjoyment, no chance.

That's not to say that FWD can't be fun - Exhibit A: Honda Integra Type R, but how much better would it be if it were RWD (a mini M3? )

[ss_collins]

alpina - tis dead old boy!

[Lee Janotta]

The whole thing just makes me a bit sick and terribly depressed.

First off, the engine and drive wheels _do_ belong at the same end... The BACK end!

Secondly, people who can't appreciate (rear!) tire-smoking musclecar or a nimble little rear-drive sports car shouldn't be allowed to drive. I'm serious! They should be forced to take the bus or the train!

I've absolutely had it with the **** the auto companies produce in the under-$40,000 range. I'm building my own damn cars from now own.

[Alpina]

Mr Collins. What is dead?

[Tristan]

"the engine and drive wheels _do_ belong at the same end... The BACK end!"

What, and Ferdinand Porsche had it right?? Give over!!

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Tristan
"the engine and drive wheels _do_ belong at the same end... The BACK end!"

What, and Ferdinand Porsche had it right?? Give over!!

How many races have Porsche cars won? How about just the 911?

I'd say the concept's been proven!

[Tristan]

NO!! The engine is in the WRONG PLACE!! And besides, you don't count the Porsche SuperCup as part of "how many races has Porsche won"!! AND how many races has Porsche won with MID-ENGINED cars over rear-engined ones?? EXACTLY!!

[Lee Janotta]

Bah! They've won their class in every single significant sports car race on the planet at least once with the 356 or 911!

And yes, mid-engined is better, but it doesn't leave much room in the car. Between front engined-rear drive, front engined-front drive, and rear engined-rear drive, I'll take the latter, thank you!

[AussieV8]

Look back when Mazda was throwing the idea around to bring out a MG style car MX5 thank god they didn't put FWD in it and brought back some good old rear slide driving. Ford OZ thought they could re-badge the MX5 with the Capri with FWD what a lemon this car turned out to be and it was and handle just like a small hatch with no roof.
Long live the RWD.

I can't wait till our RX8 arrives......

[Lee Janotta]

Eh, I really don't care for the looks of the RX-8... I want a 2-rotor version of the new Renesis in the Miata!

[Lee Janotta]

In fact, screw the 2-rotor thing... The Renesis is fine as it is!

[Alpina]

OK what the **** is a Renesis?

[garcon]

A Renault Avensis?! It's like the Toyota version, only it's unreliable as well as being ****e...

[Tristan]

I thought they were Phil Collins' other band...

[davemorganfan]

You all seem to be forgetting that you can buy a brand new dirt cheap RWD car. It's called the Smart.

[Lee Janotta]

Renesis is Mazda's marketing name for the new generation of rotary engines. They've started with basically a clean-sheet design. This one has multiple side ports and better apex sealing.

Can't wait to hear one of these beauties on the race track!

[Bluebottle]

Originally posted by davemorganfan
You all seem to be forgetting that you can buy a brand new dirt cheap RWD car. It's called the Smart.

We were actually trying to forget....!

Actually, those little things are a good deal, unless you need more than two seats.

[Lee Janotta]

I only need the two seats, but a car with the handling characteristics of a lawnmower isn't my idea of fun.

[alfasud]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Bah! They've won their class in every single significant sports car race on the planet at least once with the 356 or 911!

But would you let your teenage son have a 356 or early 911 as a first car (cost considerations aside)? Late model 911's are somewhat more predictable in their handling, but this is a triumph of development over design. 40 years of 911 development helps.

Rudolf Hruska was an ex-Porsche engineer who's experience with Porsche rear engined designs showed when he went to Alfa Romeo and led the Alfasud project, using a boxer-4 engine driving the combined gearbox/differential unit. But the engine was at the front, driving the front wheels and was also water cooled. I can assure you that an Alfasud from the 1970's was a far better car to drive than any of the small affordable RWD alternatives (Car magazine's "Car of the Decade") - but lets not mention the rust, Alfa Romeo RWD cars rusted too!

Of course if money, fuel consumption and packaging (i.e. passenger space) limitations are no object, then I'll have a mid engined RWD Ferrari instead - there will be a place for rear wheel drive, for a long time yet.

[Lee Janotta]

I got a really awful-handling 2.3L Mustang as my first car. Tight into the corner and loose out. I had to learn 4-wheel drift just to get from home to school in the winter. The early 911's going to be the next.

How many thousands of people had old Volkswagens as their first cars? Quite a few people here had Corvairs first. You have to be gentle with them at first, but I firmly believe vehicle dynamics training should be mandatory. Once you get used to the handling, they're tons of fun, and in a skid, more controllable than a front-drive car that's just going to understeer terminally. With oversteer, you can give opposite-lock input, you can dump the clutch, floor the throttle and spin the tires as you're sliding backwards to slow you down. I've been in plenty of slides and spins in dozens of different road cars to know which I'd rather be driving on the edge of control, especially in bad conditions.

Front engined-rear drive and mid-engined cars are more or less out of the debate, as they're more expensive to build and leave less interior room. That's why I'm really only looking at the merits of cars with the drive wheels at the same end as the engine.

That said, I'd put everyone _else's_ kids in Corollas or something else they couldn't hurt themselves or others in.

[Alpina]

I agree with most of that but....
1. Not all FWD understeer terminally. the best example is the peugeot 205. It is well known for its "back endieness" the new Mini Coopers oversteer as well. I sat for three laps at a race track behind one watching it slide about.
2. Small FWD are just as dangerous as any other car. just ask Marc Bolan or maybe not.

[Tristan]

"Porsche 911... a triumph of development over design"

So why not get the "design" right in the first place and see how you can develop that??

[krt917]

Because variety is great and because challenges are their to be attempted. You just can't (or shouldn't) argue with what Porsche have achieved.

PS. Their experience with the 911 obviuosly didn't hurt when it came to building Front-engined RWD cars, like the 944, which have been amongst the best.