What if?

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by indycool

Good luck out there, DS.......hope it's a better time than some of us are grumping about.

thanks, and I hope it's better too !

[JohnSSC]

Hope you enjoy the racing and that you stick around DS!

[climb]

Dapix, following your latest (insightful as usual) post, I have to say that:

- I think those pending deals will be accomplished, at the very last moment, at least most of them, it's not the first time we see that in anerican OW, nor it will be the last

- As you say, any possible coordination will not take place before 2008, so It seems unlikely to me that even a simple letter of agreement could attract sponsors this year

- reading your posts It seems to me (but I may be wrong) that, upon this talks, you put KK on the "yes-side" and TG on the negative one. I think this would be too simplistic; behind these two chaps and their competition there are personal troubles which started way before the Cart auctions. Each of them has his own yes and nos.

[DaPix]

Originally Posted by climb

- reading your posts It seems to me (but I may be wrong) that, upon this talks, you put KK on the "yes-side" and TG on the negative one. I think this would be too simplistic; behind these two chaps and their competition there are personal troubles which started way before the Cart auctions. Each of them has his own yes and nos.

I believe that KK is an astute businessman and that he is trying to make his investment in Champ Car payoff. I think he sees a combined Champ Car/IRL series (not necessarily a full merger) as a means of drawing fans and sponsors back to open wheel racing in the U.S. in large numbers. Essentially the sum of the parts would quickly attract a much larger audience and more sponsor support than the two series can do separately, except perhaps over many years.

Since TG started the IRL in 1996 and divided American open wheel racing in the process, there have been several attempts to put it back together. TG has said no to all of them. A notable one brokered by Roger Penske suggested 50:50 ownership, 50:50 respresentation on the Board of Directors, and hiring an independent Director for a combined series. KK was willing to do that, TG said no.

I don't want to restart or rehash the merger talk here. KK has taken a different tack to try to communicate with TG privately. Whether that will ever come to anything is unknowable at this moment. In that process KK is certainly protecting his investment (and that of GF and PG). So he won't say yes to just anything, but I think he is more open to meeting in the middle ground that TG.

[DaPix]

Originally Posted by climb

- As you say, any possible coordination will not take place before 2008, so It seems unlikely to me that even a simple letter of agreement could attract sponsors this year

Both the IRL and Champ Car will be mostly on ABC/ESPN in the U.S. this year. On nine weekends there will be both an IRL race and a Champ Car race. At present those are viewed as competing series, and they present choices for race fans and viewers in general to make, to watch one but not the other even if they are not both on at the same time.

If those race schedules were coordinated, so that we had 30+ weekends of open wheel racing with a coordinated TV promotion of that "combined" schedule I think a much larger TV audience would result. Just announcing a commitment this year to a coordinated schedule next year would invite cross promotion of the TV broadcasts this year and begin to develop some continuity from one week to the next. If viewers began to see it as 22 weekends of open wheel racing that would become 30+ weekends next year they might also look at it more as two divisions of the same sport than competing series and pay more attention to both. That increase in viewership would begin to attract more TV sponsorship this year based on ratings this year.

I would agree with you that it is too late for an announcement of coordinated scheduling for 2008 to suddenly attract a lot of team and series sponsorship for 2007, but it is not impossible for it to have some effect. Even with no announcement I think there is an opening for ABC/ESPN to create some continuity from one series to the other just because they are both on ABC/ESPN, and we may see some of that.

[DaPix]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Please be gentle - I'm new to the champCar forum, I'm a regular in the marshals forum...
I'm going out to Vegas in a couple of weeks to see my first Champ Car street event (I've been to see them in UK in 2001), and I must admit that I had no incling (my fault) that CCWS was in such a mess until I read this thread. I for one am crossing everything that deals are done and we see 18+ cars on the grid.

Can I also add how informative, level headed discussion is in here - I hope to stick around

I think the actual mess is exaggerated. It is more of a PR mess than something that will affect the on-track racing. The main question is whether or not Champ Car's owners are going to go back to providing some subsidies to teams.

I expect we will see 16-17-18 cars (pretty much as we did all of last year). If that doesn't happen without subsidies then there will be subsidies. The series owners are not going to let the series go forward without a minimal full field. And they are going to ensure that Graham Rahal is driving in Champ Car, one way or another.

You will thoroughly enjoy both the racing and the whole event. Have a great time. I wish I could be there, too.

[indycool]

DaPix, please provide a link where that was Penske's proposal to get together...it's my recollection that the reports were entirely different.

[DaPix]

That was the description of the meetings at the airport in Toronto and then at the airport in Flint, Michigan that was published by AutoWeek back in the summer of 2004. I don't have a link for it.

Yes, there were other accounts, but none of the others seemed so definitive. Penske is part of the greater Detroit automotive community where AutoWeek is published, so I have some confidence that they had a reasonable source for that story.

[indycool]

Well, I read those Autoweek pieces and I don't recall any 50-50 proposals being mentioned by either side. I recall hearing that the Flint airport meeting lasted 20 minutes and Penske cut it off because they were so far apart there wasn't any need to talk any more.

[DaPix]

Originally Posted by indycool

Well, I read those Autoweek pieces and I don't recall any 50-50 proposals being mentioned by either side. I recall hearing that the Flint airport meeting lasted 20 minutes and Penske cut it off because they were so far apart there wasn't any need to talk any more.

The 50-50 description was not part of the articles on the meeting at the time they were held. It was a paragraph in a more general column in the back (competition) part of the magazine sometime in September 2004. A subsequent revelation of details told to an AutoWeek reporter but not quoting the participants.

I just went on the AutoWeek website and found the articles at the time of the two meetings. The first meeting was June 22, 2004 at the airport in Flint between Penske, Kalkhoven, Forsythe and Gentilozzi. At that meeting the four men only talked philosophically about ways to come to an agreement with Indy Racing League founder and president Tony George. Penske says that he called Tony both before and after the meeting, but Tony offered no guidelines for the meeting. Afterward Tony said he had nothing to do with the meeting.

Penske is quoted as saying "Look, there’s a lot of speculation, but there’s a long way to go before we have anything. But there’s a right time for everything, and there might be an opportunity here. We’re not [dealing] with shareholders of a public company or 15 car owners. There are three people on that side, and if we can get a consensus with Tony..."

The second meeting was July 11, 2004 at the airport in Toronto. The three Champ Car owners and Roger Penske were present. Tony George sent Curt Brighton, the executive vice president and general counsel of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, i.e. his attorney.

That meeting resulted in a joint press release from Champ Car and the IRL that said "It is the belief of all involved that the time is not right for further discussion of unification," and "No more meetings are planned and both series are moving forward with their future plans." Penske is quoted later as saying "There are too many differences at this time."

Everything else came from somewhere else. The "20 minutes" isn't reported in AutoWeek, and neither is the report that the only negotiation that Tony's attorney was willing to enter was a price to buy Champ Car. Both of those came from other sources.

The piece I was referencing in a September 2004 issue of Autoweek was just a casual, "by the way it has now been revealed" that the proposal Penske was trying to discuss involved a 50:50 board and ownership. But it was just a small revelation, two months after the fact and not an article by itself. If someone still has their September (or maybe first week of October) 2004 AutoWeeks it would be worth looking for. It is not the subject of an article that can be accessed that way in AutoWeek's archieves.

[indycool]

Okay, I believe the report probably exists......at that time, that was probably CC's asking price.

[racinthestreets]

Do you think they should have asked less IC? And why going forward would they ask any less? Sometimes a best offense is to retreat and defend what you have. I think that is the position at this time for both sides. Since this is the WHAT IF thread how is this? Disney is known for buying into sporting franchises - the Ducks and now they have bought into the AFL - Arena Football League. What if they bought into OWRS/CCWS? Now that would be a promotional benefit and great partnership. What if they already have just they have not allowed KK to announce it because of the deal with the IRL? What if TG knows of this and is trying to figure a counter or ......???

[JohnSSC]

Interesting thought, racin, but Disney likes the "big" splash - if they were thinking of buying into anything they would want to buy into something that gives them a piece of the 500.

[racinthestreets]

Disney could be the catalyst that gets some kind of merger/collaboration. Disney also likes being global. Canada, Mexico, Europe, China and Austrailia are big markets and are a big splash IMO. Reality is that the 500 is not the splash it once was and I believe that Disney has let TG know by their contracting with OWRS.

[indycool]

Disney simply took CC's money for time.

[DaPix]

In the short run that is all that it is. A time buy.

But Champ Car's contract with Disney is for 5 years, and the IRL's contract with them only has two years to run. We will know better what the big picture is when we see what the renewal negotiations with the IRL look like in 2009.

If we can build some meaningful ratings over the next two years, and if the concept of major open wheel racing shown more often on ABC/ESPN than it has ever been anywhere (regardless of which series) plays out, then the contract renewal negotiations between Disney and the IRL will become a serious pressure point in determining the future of both series.

[Fish_Flake]

I said this before, when ESPN and Champ Car originally announced their TV deal.

Disney owns ESPN, which oversees ABC's sports programming. Prior to 2007, ESPN/ABC was the primary broadcaster of PGA golf during the summer months. When the PGA retooled its schedule for 2007 and consolidated its TV package, CBS and NBC were awarded the rights to network coverage, and the Golf Channel received cable rights. Since FOX has network rights to Major League Baseball, ESPN/ABC is left with a massive hole in its network summer schedule between the late rounds of the NBA playoffs and the resumption of NASCAR and college football in August. The absence of programming is exacerbated by the fact that while launching the ESPN on ABC brand, it dropped the Wide World of Sports banner, leaving no available tie-ins for sports variety programming. The choices then are MLS soccer, the WNBA, and racing, and as poor as Champ Car and the IRL might draw on television, even they offer a more lucrative prospect than the alternatives, whose viewing audience in general hasn't reached puberty.

As ESPN/ABC currently has the rights to broadcast the NASCAR Busch Series, IRL, and NHRA seasonwide, as well as NASCAR Nextel Cup, Champ Car, and the X Games (which includes motocross and rallying events), it would be logical for them to package these events as well as selected events from other series into a racing-themed anthology series to air on Saturday and Sunday afternoons during the summer months. It wouldn't work, though, without another marquee series to build ratings through the spring and summer, when NASCAR Nextel Cup becomes the headline event. Drag racing doesn't make good live television, and the X Games are only for a single week a year. The best bet is with open-wheel racing, but with two rival series splitting the fan base and confusing the casual observer, the two will never get the ratings deserving of headliner status. It is Disney's best interest to its bottom line that it broker a mutual understanding between Champ Car and the IRL which, if not leading to a merger, would end the predatory practices both sides act upon the other, and to together work to improve sponsorship and spectator turnout.

[DaPix]

I saw the suggestion that Champ Car might move its race in China from May to October, the fact that both Champ Car and the IRL will be carried on ABC/ESPN, and the inexplicable lack of announcements for a full Champ Car field for the 2007 season just a couple of weeks before the season begins as possibly meaning that there was some kind of cooperation between the two series in the offing. Cooperation of some kind that might attract more interest in both series. I've been around long enough to believe that was unlikely, but I hoped that something would happen, and I tried to guess what that might be.

The following article was circulated by the Associated Press Saturday night.

3/24/2007 9:30:04 PM

HOMESTEAD, Florida (AP) - Don't expect America's two rival open-wheel series to unify anytime soon.

Tony George, founder and CEO of the Indianapolis Racing League and it's IndyCar Series, said Saturday night at Homestead-Miami Speedway that talks with Kevin Kalkhoven, co-owner of the Champ Car World Series, have been put on the postponed for now.

Open-wheel fans, most of whom would love to see the two series running together as one, were excited a year ago when both George and Kalkhoven let it be known that they had formed a friendship and opened talks that could possibly lead to unification.

The excitement died down quickly, though, as the talks cooled.

"That was 12 months ago,"' George said before the start of the season-opening XM Satellite Radio Indy 300. "Kevin and I had been talking for four to six weeks, I'd say, prior to that. The reasons for being optimistic were we had had some good social interaction and we'd been kind of talking around some of the bigger issues.

"I felt those talks were going well, but we were not anywhere near ready to announce a plan for unification.

"As time went on," George added, "that whole thing changed and we've tried to stay in contact and see each other socially on occasion and have a professional relationship. As of last fall, we've kind of agreed that we don't have a lot to talk about in terms of unification and didn't likely have anything imminent that was going to change that in the next couple of years, but that we'd stay in touch. And, to a certain extent, we've done that."

George also said he and his top executives are thinking about adding a couple of non-points overseas races in the fall sometime in the future.

"I think there's a case to be made if the right opportunities come, if it's good for the sponsors, if it's good for the teams, if it's good for IndyCar racing in general to do a couple of offshore races," he said.

"We could do a couple of races in the mid-September to end of November time frame. We're just looking for the right way to package it. It's conceptually something that I've given consideration to, but nothing has been set in stone."


My take on this article, circulated world wide by the Associated Press, is that Champ Car needs puts its best efforts to showcase it's success on the front burner, and do it now.

I think the fact that TG and KK continued to have conversations over the past 15 months led KK to the thought that they might be able to make progress with some kind of cooperation. In fact I think there was an open proposal of some kind from KK to TG that TG had not responded to. TG's comment in an interview on Wind Tunnel a week ago to the effect that he owed KK a phone call and a response supports that interpretation.

And this interview circulated via the AP is TG's public response. TG is upping the ante. Not only is he not going to cooperate with KK, he will spend more of his own money in an attempt to undermine Champ Car. A real slap in Kevin Kalkhoven's face. The conversations are over.

Champ Car needs to continue to do its own thing. And it needs to rewrite it's 5 year business plan. Most 5 year plans get re-written after 3-4 years of seeing what works and what doesn't. The plan was always about doing our own thing and making our own series successful. And we need to re-assert that.

The "conversations" or at least the pubic perception of the conversations, led to renewed speculation that somewhere down the road Champ Car and the IRL would get together. We should totally disabuse ourselves of that notion. It is never going to happen. Or at least not until Champ Car proves it has long term staying power and becomes a viable, profitable racing series. And it needs to take a big step in that direction now, while the spotlight is on.

It is time for KK and GF to put Champ Car back in the headlines. We need to postpone the plan for having all the teams be self-sufficient for a couple of years. Instead we need to make the investment required to put 20 cars on the grid at Las Vegas. We have 10 teams running this year, and they would all like to be 2-car teams. There are plenty of qualified drivers with fan followings out there. The teams with open seats would love to sign those drivers, but the teams are struggling financially. They need some help to get there.

We have a great series and many highly successful events. We need to use the new ABC/ESPN contract this year to showcase the Champ Car World Series. Being successful on track and attracting a large TV audience is what is required to attract new sponsors.

Running a small field of 14-16 cars and saying "but they are all paying their own way" is not going to get the job done. IF we do that, the enormous cash outlay for the TV time buy will be squandered. It will, in effect, amount to paying to showcase how our series is struggling in contrast to the IRL's ability to run 18-20 car fields. A backhanded gift of a PR victory to the IRL. We can't let that happen.

[drewdawg727]

This thread is too long for me to read with some huge posts, so i'll just nod my head and say yes.

[Snrub]

DaPix makes a good point, that having a lot of OW racing available on the same channels may result in an overall increase in fan interest for top level US OW.

Back when I first started watching CART in the mid-90s, I didn't know the schedule. Often I'd just check the TV guide for sunday afternoon to see if it was on ABC/TSN or turn on the TV at the usual times it appeared. I think having both on the same network will result in higher ratings for both. I wonder if ABC/ESPN recognizes this as well?

[Leighton Irwin]

I watched the Wind Tunnel dialog with TG. To my feeble mind his body language was smug and self important. I have no use for TG but that is not of any import. I am very afraid the most likely way for a merger will be on TG's terms with him in complete control. The only other way would be for a complete failure of one series or the other.
The TV ratings for both are poor and the attendence at most ovals is low to very low. Homestead was 2/3 empty. Only the front stands were crowded. Milwaukee last year was terrible for both.
However TG seems to have bigger pockets than the amigoes. Therefore, the most likely chance for his series to fail would be for Honda to pull the plug.

[JohnSSC]

I had a somewhat different take, Leighton. I thought that he seemed uncomfortable with the notion of being in the spotlight as sole interviewee. To me, he came off as someone wishing he were anywhere but on TV.

[Leighton Irwin]

Any other amateur body language readers out there to side with one of us?
Or shoot us both down?

[norman-normal]

I doubt that anyone who was given the Indy Speedway at age 30 and promptly assert his authority by breaking up open wheel racing in America, would feel all that unfortable, getting a little attention.

I'll side with Leighton.

[JohnSSC]

Body language analysis, a psychological profile and demonification - all in one!

Wait till TG finds out he is responsible for the housing slump and keeping Gommendy physically fit...