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14 Jun 2008, 14:04 (Ref:2228493) | #26 | ||
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I'm really sad though that the Danes and Swedes cant agree on a way to together run a Scandinavian TCC. Both the quality and the depth of that grid would be absolutely smashing and together Sweden-Denmark-Norway would improve the overall quality of the tracks as well. |
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14 Jun 2008, 14:20 (Ref:2228508) | #27 | |||
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Otherwise, there's no need to rush things and the powers that be should be generous with grandfathering older cars. What I really would like to see are cars that are closer to stock but more powerfull than the current crop of cars. |
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14 Jun 2008, 16:45 (Ref:2228678) | #28 | ||
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14 Jun 2008, 21:19 (Ref:2228905) | #29 | ||
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So even the current participants in many cases had to go through the historybooks to manage to come up with something that would qualify for the S2000 reg format. |
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15 Jun 2008, 00:25 (Ref:2229026) | #30 | ||
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15 Jun 2008, 01:19 (Ref:2229054) | #31 | |||
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30 seconds of research showed that the road going Lacetti uses a 2.0l E-Tec II engine developed in the late 1970's, from what I can see the BMWs on both the road and track use an engine in production from 2004, Honda accord road and race cars use an angine that has been in production since 2001, and SEAT use a VAG group engine that is also available on their road going model in production from about 2005 (I think) So not only are they racing with engines that are currently available in road cars but not all of them are designs from 20 years ago, in fact only the Chevrolet/Lada engine is from before 2000 as far as I can see (althought the admittedly the Lada is only available with a 1.6l engine) |
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15 Jun 2008, 01:26 (Ref:2229058) | #32 | ||
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In any case, I wasn't arguing that no 2L NA petrols exsist in brand lineups, but that they are completely uninterested in spending millions in development to actually develop those engines for racing under the current regulations limits. |
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15 Jun 2008, 02:12 (Ref:2229070) | #33 | ||
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VAG already seems to be dropping petrol. At least I was under the impression that all 2008 TC where diesels and the petrols was just 2007 and older models, but I might be wrong. Really don't know for sure where GM as a whole is going with their engines in the future, but for SAAB they are definitely pushing low pressure turbo and E85. |
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15 Jun 2008, 09:57 (Ref:2229244) | #34 | |||
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Running bio-ethanol doesn't even mean you need a new engine - a few ECU changes and that 20 year old design will happily keep on running. If as you manufacturers don't have a 2.0l petrol engine with which to go racing, how does converting to bio-fuel help? |
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15 Jun 2008, 11:02 (Ref:2229285) | #35 | ||||
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Also, the power increase from a optimized turbo petrol to turbo E85 can be as much as +25% and +10% torque so + the turbo the engines for sure don't need to be 2L to keep up with the current 2L NA patrols or 2L TDIs. A lowly 1.4 might be enough for the job. Last edited by stedevil; 15 Jun 2008 at 11:05. |
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15 Jun 2008, 11:36 (Ref:2229311) | #36 | |||
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15 Jun 2008, 15:28 (Ref:2229462) | #37 | ||
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The Regulation says
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http://polonez.free.fr/essai11016s.html |
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15 Jun 2008, 15:51 (Ref:2229476) | #38 | ||
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well I guess all the cars on the WTCC grid use legitimate engines then!
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15 Jun 2008, 16:01 (Ref:2229485) | #39 | |
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Yupp, noone was claiming they dont
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15 Jun 2008, 16:40 (Ref:2229504) | #40 | ||
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15 Jun 2008, 17:01 (Ref:2229518) | #41 | |
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Well, for starters, Volvo cars are just a brand name for Ford nowdays, and Ford has several other brandnames with E85 optimized offerings.
To the more general question of why manufacturers would be more interested in developing technology that isn't already known to be an outdated dead end, I thought I had already pointed out why several times. If I do it one more time Im sure someone will tell me to stop being a parrot |
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15 Jun 2008, 18:44 (Ref:2229592) | #42 | |||
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I agree, it should be possible to use alternatives. Variety is good. But the 2.0l engine is still a common denominator between most cars, so rules including alternatives should be balanced around their performance. Last edited by Dead-Eye; 15 Jun 2008 at 18:46. |
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15 Jun 2008, 19:34 (Ref:2229622) | #43 | |||
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- Production cars with only safety modifications, and - production- or sanctioning body approved aftermarket aero-parts - racing-ECU (maybe spec) - shocks, brakes, etc. - No fixed displacement limit, but a maximum of six-cylinders, forced induction is allowed. - cars have to be approved by the sanctionig body - no 4-door rule, in fact the use of coupes and hot hatches should be encouraged to make up for not so spectacular aero - FIA GT3 like pre-season evaluation and performance adjustment - No factory teams, factories may supply drivers and tech-support List of possible cars: - Opel Astra OPC - Golf GTI - BMW 128 - Mini Cooper S - Volvo C30 - Peugeot 308 - Subaru Impreza - Mercedes CLC 230 - Audi TT - Renault Megane RS - Hyundai Genesis Coupe - Nissan Primera 20V - Ford Focus ST - Seat Leon - Alfa 149 etc... A big division with cars like Audi A5, Merc CLK, BMW M3, Ford Mustang, new Chevy Camaro, Dodge Challenger, Subaru WRX STi, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, Nissan 350Z could either run alongside or instead of the smaller cars in DTM. |
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15 Jun 2008, 20:40 (Ref:2229667) | #44 | |||||
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15 Jun 2008, 21:16 (Ref:2229691) | #45 | |||||
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@Speed-King: Sounds a bit like DRM...I love it |
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15 Jun 2008, 21:54 (Ref:2229719) | #46 | |||
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Ford have gone mainly the rallying route with WRC and single make championships for it's European motorsport whilst concentrating on NASCAR in the states. With other manufacturers you have Mercedes in F1 and DTM, Peugeot/Citroen are involved in sportscars and WRC respectively, VAG are represented in sportscars and have decided that touring cars is also viable with Seat, Honda have decided the way forward for them lies in bikes or in the States via Acura in sportscars, Nissan is now owned by Renault so they have decided to concentrate on Japan via Super GT, Toyota have F1 and Nascar. Ultimately I don't think there is any problem with S2000 regs, Super Touring became too expensive and almost killed off touring car racing, since Super 2000 came along the BTCC has started to attract the attention it used to, we now have an FIA World Championship, the Scandanavian championships are better known outside of their own countries. You have to realise that it's not the regs that are keeping manufacturers out of touring cars, it's more that they feel there are higher profile routes to take their brands, remember that Touring Cars, whilst it uses cars probably most closely related to the cars you see on the road, is very much behind F1, WRC and possibly sportscars in the amount of public interest it receives. An example of this is being discussed in another thread regarding Andy Priaulx receiving an MBE, he's a 3 time world champion yet Lewis Hamilton receives more public recognition then he does. |
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15 Jun 2008, 22:00 (Ref:2229727) | #47 | |||||
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The exact size of petrol turbos and restrictions on them I think is much better handled by the recently hired FIA/WTCC engine expert. Im sure he can do a lot better job with a sientific approach in getting the correct balance than I can by theorizing on a forum. Quote:
Thus the current debate in fassion of how we need to "feed the world" I find very naive and extremely well manufactured propaganda. It's "we" that to a large part *ucked up the situation to begin with to make these people not have food on their tables (destroying their farmers and supporting their dictators providing "us" with eg oil). SO IMO it's about bloody time that farmers can start earn their living without massive governmental subsidies, and whatever else we do now, continuing to pollute for the next 30 years with petrol engines for sure will not help anyone, starving or not. Quote:
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So I'm not unwilling to react, but I again have to repeat, the facts to answer you have already been posted in this thread. Last edited by stedevil; 15 Jun 2008 at 22:04. |
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15 Jun 2008, 22:18 (Ref:2229745) | #48 | |||
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15 Jun 2008, 22:25 (Ref:2229750) | #49 | ||
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Look, all I've been saying all the time is that manufacturers should have a choice in what they want to run, be it NA, FI petrol, Diesel or other alternative fuels. You will not convince me that summarily sending the 2.0l NA to the museum (to use your own words), meaning banning it, is the right way. If there are advantages to using other engines, they will be used (especially if the touring car bureau encourages it - if a concept has advantages in a certain area they shouldn't be equalised away, at least up to a point). Although I believe that WTCC's main problems are not the regulations and I agree with kristof14 on that point. |
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15 Jun 2008, 22:28 (Ref:2229751) | #50 | ||
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