Need some help with Escort Mk1 1974 (Group 2 !!)

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

So the tcas did come off a famous car then! Do they have a rose joint for locating to bottom of upright and can you recollect if the top mounts and uprights were also similar?

I'll get a photo and post it here. Can't recall top mounts but will ask my brother who was the mechanical genius. I think the uprights were similar.

[morninggents]

If I can remember how to do it there should be some photos attached to this post.
There are numbers on the TCAs - inside one chanel of each TCA is 'LM10W' and on the opposite chanel is '13.113'. Any ideas what these are. I think the LM10W may be the aluminium specification and the 13.113 could be a part number - but whose? I have a friend who used to work at Broadspeed and I'll ask him.
I have also had the top mounts shown for a number of years but can't remember if they came at the same time as the TCAs. The top mounts have no marking other than a marker pen 'R' and 'L'.

[Mike Bell]

Those tcas look the same as ones Johan has pic of on car, so maybe that is one part can be confirmed as Broadpeed? We need for Gungebucket to confirm what Wooding used on front........ The pic I posted possibly shows a steel tubular arm rather than aluminium cast / machined one- maybe safer as would bend rather that fracture? I imagine specification changed regularly as it always has done in motorsport!

Johan, I am a little confused as to reason you need the information. Do you have a car and need to prove that parts are correct, or are you building a car and want to use same parts? I am interested as when I built my Gp2 Escort (to 1974 spec) I was never able to get full information about Zakspeed suspension. It would be good if finally some or all parts could be confirmed as correct!

[jsvahn]

Thank you "morninggents" for your pictures!!

The TCA on the finnish car is from solid (Billet) aluminium as they have been since it came to Finland from Boreham (??).
When reading the classification document there is a picture of a TCA in aluminium dated 1/4/71 with part nr. CD 26872 and looks like "morninggents" -> machined aluminium.

We are 2 buddies starting to build 2 RS1600 Group 2 (H1) here in Finland and would like to build them as they were built back in the days Maybe it is too easy to buy "rally" parts And it can be good to have proof of what kind of parts were used because there are lot of new stuff on the market, especially GR4 rally parts. We dont want to build a rallycar

There is not enough "building" pictures of the cars on the web so this is probably the best way to get some and information how they where built. We have just the Boreham Racing car there in Finland but plenty of Rally cars.

[morninggents]

There was a thread not so long ago about Zakspeed Escorts. Perhaps some of the contributors to that thread may have information or pictures of Zakspeed suspension set-up.

Also, there are Alan Mann and Broadspeed Escorts still around and the owners may be prepared to describe or photo their car's set-up.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by morninggents

There was a thread not so long ago about Zakspeed Escorts. Perhaps some of the contributors to that thread may have information or pictures of Zakspeed suspension set-up.

Also, there are Alan Mann and Broadspeed Escorts still around and the owners may be prepared to describe or photo their car's set-up.

Johan, good luck with the build! After not being able to discover enough information about Zakspeed I built my car using normal front legs and hubs but with compression struts and drop link arb. All could be swapped if information becomes available!

The previous Zak thread was mostly about the Gp5 turbo Mk2 spaceframe car so not as relevant as could be for 1974. There was another by Greg Cozier researching an ex Broadspeed Mk1 he has in the Bahamas.

Perhaps the most famous and original AMR Escort XOO349F is back with the Mann family but comes from an earlier period. The problem with a lot of cars (like the Zakspeed Mk1 I looked at) is that their careers continued after Gp2 ETCC or whatever and the spec was changed over time. Period photos and recollections are worth a lot!

[jsvahn]

Thanks Mike, Good Luck is needed

Mike, I suppose it is your Mk1 that is yellow and green on Wilcox website. From where have you bought the bubble arches? Did they fit well?

From the pictures it seems that you are using 15" wheels. Have you done anything to the inner wheelarch to get a 15" wheel to fit??

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by jsvahn

Thanks Mike, Good Luck is needed

From where have you bought the bubble arches? Did they fit well?

From the pictures it seems that you are using 15" wheels. Have you done anything to the inner wheelarch to get a 15" wheel to fit??

Hi Johan, the arches came from Fibresports in UK. It has been suggested that they made the originals for Broadspeed, who first used that design, but again don't know if that is true. They come as arch and section of wing that you have to blend in to the original. The result looks right and they are strong (but heavy). The car now has a self made aluminium front spoiler that is closer in design to 1974/5 cars.

Yes the rear inner arches have to be removed and larger tubs fitted. These are available to buy. I have seen front footwells modified as well to clear tyres on lock. You will need to do this if using Zakspeed width wheels!

I can send you photos of arches and tubs being fitted if you want.

[Gungebucket]

Can't remember details of the front suspension at the moment, but the old grey matter may still come up with something! I do recall more about the rear suspension though. I remember collecting the rear axles from Ford Cologne. The diff housings were aluminium and the axle tubes dural. The originals had the suspension pick up points welded in place, but these fractured near the welds. The ones we used had the pick up points clamped in place, a bit like overgrown SU throttle arms! The axles were so light that I could carrly two at a time. one in each hand. D

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gungebucket

Can't remember details of the front suspension at the moment, but the old grey matter may still come up with something! I do recall more about the rear suspension though. I remember collecting the rear axles from Ford Cologne. The diff housings were aluminium and the axle tubes dural. The originals had the suspension pick up points welded in place, but these fractured near the welds. The ones we used had the pick up points clamped in place, a bit like overgrown SU throttle arms! The axles were so light that I could carrly two at a time. one in each hand. D

Welcome back Gunge. Get that grey matter exercised! Very interesting about the axle casings, as have always wondered how they got the Gp2 cars to weigh so little. A light axle would make a lot of difference- a thick tube steel one weighs a ton! Can you recollect if the hubs were fully floating like the rally ones or again lighter and simpler?

If the Wooding cars were in ETC then presumably you were building for endurance, so even though axles were very light must have been strong as well?

[zakspeed65]

Hi All,
The 72 Cologne Capri uses the same Alloy Upright and Front Leg Unit as my Gp5 Escort. I think it is therefore possible that they were used by Ford supported teams like Mann and Broadspeed.

I add some photos of the Zakspeed Gp2 Top Strut Mounts and Front Uprights, All Raw Castings in Magnesium, it is my understanding that DRM regs of the day stated that "Original" mounting points and holes must be used. These units were therefore used to add more Caster. The Uprights were carried over to the Gp5 cars.

Hope this helps, I know the effort that goes into this type of research.

Cheers.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by zakspeed65

Hi All,
The 72 Cologne Capri uses the same Alloy Upright and Front Leg Unit as my Gp5 Escort. I think it is therefore possible that they were used by Ford supported teams like Mann and Broadspeed.

I add some photos of the Zakspeed Gp2 Top Strut Mounts and Front Uprights, All Raw Castings in Magnesium, it is my understanding that DRM regs of the day stated that "Original" mounting points and holes must be used. These units were therefore used to add more Caster. The Uprights were carried over to the Gp5 cars.

Hope this helps, I know the effort that goes into this type of research.

Cheers.

Hi Gary, I reckon you are correct that Escort used same parts as the Capri, it makes a lot of sense especially as Broadspeed were involved with both. Not sure about AMR Escorts though as the cars date back to late 60s.

Thanks for taking the trouble to show your pics! BTW think your car looks better in Mampe colours than in Electrolux.

[jsvahn]

Thank you everyone for your help! I know if someone is digging into this someone will have interesting info about the cars

More info is welcome!

Mike: email me at johan(at)johansvahn.com (www.johansvahn.com)

[Mike Bell]

Although some light has been shed on the Zakspeed Escort Mk1 front suspension for Johan, there is still so much to learn about these cars. It would be great if some more information could be gleaned from those around at the time!

The rear suspension layout, for example- especially the damper position. Consensus is that they didn't use the Broadspeed / Boreham / Wooding torsion bars, so where were the coils / dampers sited- inboard of chassis or....?

Another question. The cars were light considering the rules were strict on removing metal. How was this achieved? On same theme, were the wheelarch extensions fibreglass, steel or aluminium? I always assumed due to the shape that they were the former, but were they- aluminium would be lighter?

[jsvahn]

http://johansvahn.com/projecte/ClassicFordJuly2009.pdf

Can anyone confirm that Zakspeed had the rear dampers as the car in the magazine?

I think they used aluminium rollcage -> to get close to the minimum weight

Things that are clear at the moment:
- Top plates
- Rear axle -> aluminium
- Lower wishbone

[Mike Bell]

Hi Johan. That is the car I have seen. As I said before it is not certain if the modifications are subsequent to it's Finotto days. Certainly a lot of things have changed!

Yes, probably correct about the alloy roll cage, they were legal at that time.

Hope you got my emails!

[jsvahn]

Did you get my email Mike?

Here are some more photos:

Seen this car on some website/forum and they say it should be an old JollyClub Mk1.








The inner wheel arches are much, much bigger than original.. Did they change them also??

[morninggents]

In the Broadspeed shell that I had lightness had been added by a series of 2 inch holes in all the non-stress bearing panels inside the cockpit.

[Mike Bell]

My 3rd attempt at this post. IE your days are numbered

Johan, nothing in inbox. More interesting pics thanks. See the Jolly Club car dampers also come through boot floor.

Having read period AppJ stuff forwards, backwards, upside down etc have got my ideas on what was and wasn't allowed regards keeping weight down. Comments please!

From 1971 to 1974 incl you could-

Use lightweight transmission and axle parts.
Use lightweight engine ancilliaries and cooling system components.
Use lightweight doors, bonnet, boot, side windows.
Lighten / remove material from non visible parts of interior.
Remove non visible insulating material.

Not possible-

To remove heater.
To change front seats unless ballasted to original weight.
To remove visible dash, door, side trims etc from interior.
To remove door handle and window mechanisms- but assume if not visible could be lightened?

No mention of retaining rear seating or spare wheel, but as AppJ Gp2 was just extension of Gp1 assume the latter rules apply and these had to be in place- Were they?

For the single 1975 year regs changes were-

Allowed to remove water pipes from heater as long as ventilation still worked.
Allowed to remove rear seating and following that allowed to place spare wheel in rear of habiticle. (Now mentioned )

Big change in the no-no's though- Not allowed lightweight bonnet, boot, doors or sideglass....

Then in 1976 when the rules changed dramatically all above went but not relevant to Mk1 Escort by then. Interestingly, despite the more restrictive regs you could now remove the front passenger seat and heater!

[Frank de Jong]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

From 1971 to 1974 incl you could-

Use lightweight transmission and axle parts.
Use lightweight doors, bonnet, boot, side windows.


No mention of retaining rear seating or spare wheel, but as AppJ Gp2 was just extension of Gp1 assume the latter rules apply and these had to be in place- Were they?

You could use a different gearbox, but it had to be homologates. Lightweight bodyparts were banned after 1970 (which hurt Alfa Romo especially) but if the homologated car had alu doors for instance (like the BMW CSL) it was allowed, of course.

Rear seat could be removed, spare wheel was mandatory and it had to have the same diameter as the other wheels - but the width was free; so the Ford Capri had a bicycle wheel as a spare...

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

You could use a different gearbox, but it had to be homologates. Lightweight bodyparts were banned after 1970 (which hurt Alfa Romo especially) but if the homologated car had alu doors for instance (like the BMW CSL) it was allowed, of course.

Rear seat could be removed, spare wheel was mandatory and it had to have the same diameter as the other wheels - but the width was free; so the Ford Capri had a bicycle wheel as a spare...

Thank you Frank for that good information. Well done Ford with the Capri 'spare' wheel!

Regarding transmission- what about for instance changing bellhousing material to magnesium rather that iron- I think that was allowed?

The Escort RS1600 homologation papers show as a 'variant' lightweight fibreglass bonnet & boot (page 20) and also aluminium skinned doors (page 22) but was not homologated until Sept 1970 I think. Would they have been allowed to use the panels?

[Frank de Jong]

For what I know, they could be used until 31/12/1970! Transmissions had to be homologated (without minimum number) but I don't think you could change much afterwards.

[nabs]

we owned the dave mathews mk1 broadspeed 1300 escort. all suspension was braised steel bar. other than ali front top mountings. windows glass. bonnet bootlid doors wheel arches roll cage steel. both windows could be wound up and down, but the window winder regulaters had been drilled with the largest holes possible to save weight. wiper moter had been doctored to be twice as fast as normal. single rear springs adj shockers front and rear. adj front ride height. later boreham escort we owned .tortion rear suspension rear ride heiht could be adjusted in 5 mins but no adjustment for front ride height or front and rear shocks. broadspeed car handled like a dream. boreham works car what a pig...........

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by nabs

we owned the dave mathews mk1 broadspeed 1300 escort. all suspension was braised steel bar. other than ali front top mountings. windows glass. bonnet bootlid doors wheel arches roll cage steel. both windows could be wound up and down, but the window winder regulaters had been drilled with the largest holes possible to save weight. wiper moter had been doctored to be twice as fast as normal. single rear springs adj shockers front and rear. adj front ride height. later boreham escort we owned .tortion rear suspension rear ride heiht could be adjusted in 5 mins but no adjustment for front ride height or front and rear shocks. broadspeed car handled like a dream. boreham works car what a pig...........

Thanks nabs for adding to the discussion! If my sources are correct Dave M raced the 1300GT in 1971 so it was to that year Gp2 spec rather than previous Gp5 coil sprung only rear end. Can you remember where rear dampers were located to body? Guess they were not fitted with additional coils at that time and leaf springs were 'real'? Also interested if front legs were original Ford type or car had special uprights and how much interior car had retained.

The only Escort that I can find Boreham raced was LVX947J so must have been that one. It was used first by Ford Belgium in 1971 then Boreham 1972 (Birrell & others) and was fitted with the 'experimental' torsion bar rear end at some point. Sold to Ron Douglas after that. Car painted yellow with green bonnet which I guess was Belgium scheme. I wonder who came up with the torsion bar design- Len Bailey or Ralph Broad?

Not surprised Broadspeed car handled better- it's a comment you often hear about their cars! Thanks again for post, any more period Escort info greatly appreciated

[nabs]

the rear shocks were springless mounted through inner arches. front legs looked like normal ford adj comp suspention from 1967. boreham car was the one that evette fontaine won the nevells (that what the track sounded like but do not know how to spell the name of the circuit !!!!) 6 hr race with. 12inch rear wheels 285 13 dunlop 418s front 9.2inch shod with 225 13 dunlop 418s engine 250 bhp bdg on injection 5 speed zf box atlas steel back axle plastic rear dummy springs. hope that helps ta