Rydell's comments

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I think the Wtcc has proved wrong all of those who said it was too manufacturer-dependant. Eventhough the only real works effort is the Chevrolet programme (Volvo are just putting their toe in the water, they'll be fully functional only in 2012), the series will still have around 20 entries (taking out of account any last minute deals).
With Coronel & Michelisz in a BMW, Tarquini in the SEAT and Muller and Huffy in the Chevy the WTCC looks still very interesting. It remains to be seen whether it's more interesting than the STCC or not!

If teams had been able to go out and find major sponsors to replace the manufacturer dollars, I'd have agreed. But for the drivers to year after year be asked to fork up money to pay for their rides is simply not sustainable.

[helterskelter]

Most drivers are backed by sponsors. Look at Engstler, Michelisz and Coronel, for instance. So what's the problem with that? The championship is interesting, eventhough manufacturers have almost completely pulled out of it. It qctually is more attractive than ever for the privateers

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Most drivers are backed by sponsors. Look at Engstler, Michelisz and Coronel, for instance. So what's the problem with that? The championship is interesting, eventhough manufacturers have almost completely pulled out of it. It qctually is more attractive than ever for the privateers

Point is it does. So a few drivers have long-time backers, whopdi-*******-do. Doesn't help much when it's still expected that it's the drivers who has to find the budget. The consequences of this is that talented drivers I'm sure would rather be in WTCC than some national series (or even not racing at all) can't find a drive - Turkington, Gené, Thommo, Radermecker, Huisman and more. And meanwhile one of the greats of the sport, Gabriele Tarquini, has to go out and find money to fund his seat to keep him in the series. It's ridicolous. Who's going to focus on a career in touring cars if there's no chance to be hired by professional teams because of your talent, as opposed to always being asked to bring money to a ride? It derives the grid of talent. That it looks fine this year and may do this or that year matters not. For a series to be sustainable it must be able to offer people a chance to earn their keep, sooner or later.

[rustyfan]

If the WTCC had a more attractive product - as in; better tracks and faster, more exciting cars - I'm sure legends like Tarquini wouldn't be forced to bring money to have a race seat.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

If the WTCC had a more attractive product - as in; better tracks and faster, more exciting cars - I'm sure legends like Tarquini wouldn't be forced to bring money to have a race seat.

STCC has the same cars and even worse tracks (from what the Swedes on here tell me) and yet drivers seem to get paid there...

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

STCC has the same cars and even worse tracks (from what the Swedes on here tell me) and yet drivers seem to get paid there...

Exactly. Attractiveness of the cars is not the point, Superstars Series has wonderful cars and there's still only one-two manufacturers in it.
Jimmy, I agree on one point and disagree on another. It is true that a series has to have manufacturers to be sustainable. My point was different: it all started because I said that people always criticized the WTCC for being too manufacturer-dependant, and that was clearly wrong, because the championship is attractive enough to push people to give their money (or sponsors, or whoever) to be in it.
Having said that I absolutely agree with you when you say that the great drivers will have to go away when there's no manufacturer paying them. That is the real trouble.
Anyway I haven't seen too many professional drivers who started specifically on Touring Cars, most of them came from single seaters. By the way you mentioned Radermecker: I rated him very highly as a driver and then he messed up in Belgium this year in the Wtcc after having even done a test. Anybody have a clue what happend to him?

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

STCC has the same cars and even worse tracks (from what the Swedes on here tell me) and yet drivers seem to get paid there...

I was thinking more on a global scale and in regards to Tarquini in particular.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

I was thinking more on a global scale and in regards to Tarquini in particular.

Even then... GT1 has the cars and had the tracks last year, but this year's season was very iffy until recently, and they've replaced a lot of very good tracks with merely decent ones.

IMHO the money just isn't there for a world championship that deserves that name in either touring cars or GTs. I'd take a functioning Euroseries everyday over a dysfunctional World Championship.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Even then... GT1 has the cars and had the tracks last year, but this year's season was very iffy until recently, and they've replaced a lot of very good tracks with merely decent ones.

IMHO the money just isn't there for a world championship that deserves that name in either touring cars or GTs. I'd take a functioning Euroseries everyday over a dysfunctional World Championship.

Do you seriously think that the real problem of the WTCC is having Curitiba, Guangdong and Macau? I think they have other bigger problems. The extra 30,000€ needed for the shipment of those cars is nothing compared to the 700,000 you need for a whole season!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Do you seriously think that the real problem of the WTCC is having Curitiba, Guangdong and Macau? I think they have other bigger problems. The extra 30,000€ needed for the shipment of those cars is nothing compared to the 700,000 you need for a whole season!

The shipment costs per se are not the issue - the problem is racing in markets that many European sponsors aren't even active in and racing at times that are bad for European TV-audiences. A lot of the races on the WTCC-schedule are more or less worthless for European sponsors, and yet they are expected to pay the teams for participating in them. And I am not convinced that the prestige of the "World Championship" title is enough to make up for that.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Even then... GT1 has the cars and had the tracks last year, but this year's season was very iffy until recently, and they've replaced a lot of very good tracks with merely decent ones.

Haven't been able to see the FIA GT championship on TV for years, unfortunately, so I'm quite lost to everything going on there.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

IMHO the money just isn't there for a world championship that deserves that name in either touring cars or GTs. I'd take a functioning Euroseries everyday over a dysfunctional World Championship.

No argument there.

Must admit I have rather high hopes for the WTCC at Monza, Donington and Suzuka this year though. If only they would rid themselves of the silly format of ultra short sprint races...

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Exactly. Attractiveness of the cars is not the point, Superstars Series has wonderful cars and there's still only one-two manufacturers in it.
Jimmy, I agree on one point and disagree on another. It is true that a series has to have manufacturers to be sustainable. My point was different: it all started because I said that people always criticized the WTCC for being too manufacturer-dependant, and that was clearly wrong, because the championship is attractive enough to push people to give their money (or sponsors, or whoever) to be in it.
Having said that I absolutely agree with you when you say that the great drivers will have to go away when there's no manufacturer paying them. That is the real trouble.
Anyway I haven't seen too many professional drivers who started specifically on Touring Cars, most of them came from single seaters. By the way you mentioned Radermecker: I rated him very highly as a driver and then he messed up in Belgium this year in the Wtcc after having even done a test. Anybody have a clue what happend to him?

Regarding tracks, I think the Swedish/British type of tracks are far more suited to touring car racing than the type WTCC uses. But apart from how exciting the races are I don't think the tracks makes the championships more or less successful (except maybe Macau).

If you meant people thought it was dependant to the level of falling down like a house of cards, then you're right it's proven those people wrong. But I think it's a mistake to just sit around and wait for new manufacturers to enter - there's not enough of them for that to work in the long term. What needs to be done is to make the series more attractive to other sponsors, be they Vodafone, E.ON or whatever. Then teams and drivers can get back to a safer and more secure future.

Edit: And finally on a career in touring cars, the drivers may come from other types of racing originally, but the point is you attract good drivers out on the look for a professional career. If that opportunity isn't there, the overall quality of the drivers taking part will be much lower.

[duke_toaster]

I think everyone has something correct when it comes to the WTCC's flaws. The choice of flyaways is flawed - Marrakech probably pay a fair bit, so they're a good bet. Suzuka is a good idea if it causes Japanese marques to get in to the series, and Macau is classic. But Guangdong ... hasn't attendances at virtually all motosport in China demonstrated that they're wasting their time? I'd junk the Americas entirely (or go to the US), end with Suzuka and Macau and use Marrakech as a three continents fudge.

The series isn't attractive to sponsors in my view partially because of the television coverage. Two short races with a few hours in between isn't good. What I would do is run a sprint race a few minutes after qualifying, and have a longer race on Sunday. Or maintain two short races, but run them with 30 minutes or so between them. The latter obviously means that repairs will have to be lightning fast if you ding it in race 1, which is a big flaw. Being on Eurosport doesn't help because it's not got the availability or visibility of a lot of other broadcasters. Although that won't change as Eurosport promote the event.

One really - and I mean really - radical option for the WTCC is ... weeknights. Yes. I'm serious. Yes. I haven't been smoking anything. Try rigging up some floodlights at Ricardo Tormo (the track is pretty dull in the daytime, and it's rather compact), and racing on a Thursday or Tuesday night. Yes, this has obvious flaws. But what other motorsport is it going up against on Tuesdays or Thursdays? Obviously this could only be done for some rounds, but it would be an interesting option to try.

The costs are clearly ridiculous, in terms of both the actual cost (S2000 cars are flawed in that regard), and cost/benefit in terms of performance. Perhaps a form of NGTC+ is the best option in that regard?

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Regarding tracks, I think the Swedish/British type of tracks are far more suited to touring car racing than the type WTCC uses.

I agree that the British tracks are great for touring cars and overall probably better than those in the WTCC (although Monza is hard to beat). But the tracks in Sweden? Way too short, slow and twisty for the most part (Ring Knutstorp in particular).

Sweden could use a Thruxton or Oulton Park to balance things out a bit.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The series isn't attractive to sponsors in my view partially because of the television coverage. Two short races with a few hours in between isn't good. What I would do is run a sprint race a few minutes after qualifying, and have a longer race on Sunday. Or maintain two short races, but run them with 30 minutes or so between them. The latter obviously means that repairs will have to be lightning fast if you ding it in race 1, which is a big flaw. Being on Eurosport doesn't help because it's not got the availability or visibility of a lot of other broadcasters. Although that won't change as Eurosport promote the event.

IMHO the WTCC should use a format similar to what the V8 SuperCars are using.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

I agree that the British tracks are great for touring cars and overall probably better than those in the WTCC (although Monza is hard to beat). But the tracks in Sweden? Way too short, slow and twisty for the most part (Ring Knutstorp in particular).

Sweden could use a Thruxton or Oulton Park to balance things out a bit.

It's not UK level, for sure. But the Swedish tracks are still pretty decent, certainly better than the ones in WTCC. And as long as they remember to put Anderstorp on the schedule there's three nice, fast tracks too. But yeah, I'd love a Thruxton/Oulton style track. With all the projects popping up from time to time (Gotland, Viking, new Dalsland and such) I'm surprised no-one is trying to build a track actually suited to the Swedish market. Fancy a go? The Stockholm or Kalmar area could use a track.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Sweden could use a Thruxton or Oulton Park to balance things out a bit.

Falkenberg? By far the best track in Sweden for Touringcars.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

If you meant people thought it was dependant to the level of falling down like a house of cards, then you're right it's proven those people wrong. But I think it's a mistake to just sit around and wait for new manufacturers to enter - there's not enough of them for that to work in the long term. What needs to be done is to make the series more attractive to other sponsors, be they Vodafone, E.ON or whatever. Then teams and drivers can get back to a safer and more secure future.

I agree completely. So what would you do to make it even more attractive (since the series is now practically surviving thanks to the sponsors)?
As for the tracks, I think Monza provides more exciting races than Goteborg, TBH, eventough I only saw Goteborg on my racing simulator. I generally like the STCC tracks, but I also believe that overtaking is not easy (which makes the Swedes fantastic at overtaking!!!!!). TBH I see Monza, Donington and Oschersleben as great touring car tracks, just like Oulton Park, Thruxton and Snetterton. I don't think the WTCC is making mistakes in choosing the tracks. One I absolutely hate is Marrakech, but it is said to be improved for this year (but so was in 2010), so we'll have to just wait and see. But Monza 2010 was a fantastic show and so was Okayama.
As for the sponsors not willing to pay for races outside Europe, I think that it's a bit streched way of seeing it. Once you want to have 12 races, you'll have to ask the sponsors the very same amount of money, possibly 30,000€ less, which is not much compared to the costs of a whole season. Once we cleared that up, I don't know if many sponsors would be interested in going to Norway, Poland or whatever. China is a new market and it may open a lot of opportunities, even marketing-wise, for new manufacturers to join. O'Young raised a lot of awareness when he went to do that promotional ride in China.
I don't think that the audiences are much of an issue. WTCC followers are mostly very into the championship and will wake up early to watch a thrilling final race in Macau. An ordinary Eurosport viewer may be interested in golf or tennis, I can hardly see one of those people sticking to Eurosport to watch a touring car race. Not that a more suitable time of day wouldn't be better for the championship, but I just don't see it as a reason to drop the World Championship title. A manufacturer can easily stick on the Cruze a sign saying '2010 World Champion' and attract motorsport enthusiasts, like Peugeout did with their rally cars.
So, China can be an interesting market an has always been a goal for KSO, Brazil is the traditional venue for the start of the season and Brazilians are huge fans of motor racing (I still remember Farfus being a superstars over there), Japan makes absolute sense since there's an S2000 championship going on and Macau is an absolute classic and exciting to watch (if it stays a season finale).

[Speed-King]

As for the sponsors not willing to pay for races outside Europe, I think that it's a bit streched way of seeing it. Once you want to have 12 races, you'll have to ask the sponsors the very same amount of money, possibly 30,000€ less, which is not much compared to the costs of a whole season.

But it is a difference if a sponsor pays 700k for 7 "effective" race weekends, i.e. the one's he gets a proper ROI from, or if he pays that money for 12 weekends with proper ROI. In the current format many sponsors get a severly diminished value for their money at five rounds and that has to scare away some potential sponsors...

Once we cleared that up, I don't know if many sponsors would be interested in going to Norway, Poland or whatever. China is a new market and it may open a lot of opportunities, even marketing-wise, for new manufacturers to join. O'Young raised a lot of awareness when he went to do that promotional ride in China.

I don't think there's a suitable track in Poland right now, but the WTCC really could do with a Scandinavian round. Austria should be on it with the Red-Bull-Ring, Zandvoort would be good as well. Germany could do with a second round TBH - I'd definitely go see them at Hockenheim and probably also at Sachsenring or Nürburgring, but driving up all the way to Oschersleben just isn't worth it for me. But maybe that's just me being egoistic.

As for China: If it is such an important market, manufacturers will sure want to have a season long presence there instead of the odd one-off. A full season CTCC-effort would probably be more effective than one WTCC-round.

I don't think that the audiences are much of an issue. WTCC followers are mostly very into the championship and will wake up early to watch a thrilling final race in Macau. An ordinary Eurosport viewer may be interested in golf or tennis, I can hardly see one of those people sticking to Eurosport to watch a touring car race. Not that a more suitable time of day wouldn't be better for the championship, but I just don't see it as a reason to drop the World Championship title.

Are there enough "hardcore" fans to justify the costs of the series, though?
DTM's success is based on it's appeal to the masses, and while I sure as hell don't want the WTCC to ape DTM in that regard, I think the product has to become more attractive to the regular Joe. I followed WTCC religiously in 2005-07, but somehow they've pretty much lost me since. And while I still follow the series to an extent, I wouldn't get up in the middle of the night for it anymore - just like I wouldn't drive all the way up to Oschersleben. If they can't even attract me, someone who has motorsports as his #1 interest, how can they hope to attract even a fraction of the F1 and DTM-crowd?

A manufacturer can easily stick on the Cruze a sign saying '2010 World Champion' and attract motorsport enthusiasts, like Peugeout did with their rally cars.

If the World Title was worth that much, we'd see more manufacturers in the series, though, I'd think. And while it might be of some worth to manufacturers, it's probably even less important for other sponsors.

[helterskelter]

So, how many international sponsors do we have in the WTCC? Coronel has had sponsors for the last 7 seasons, and many of those didn't have a race in Holland. So I don't think it is vital to have a race near home. The main thing is to expand, and you expand by going abroad. If you choose another strategy, you have the BTCS for the Netherlands, the CITE in Italy or the PTCC in Portugal. It's the sponsors' choice. Certainly Dension is happy to sponsor Michelisz AND the series, eventough it's based in Hungary, because it makes perfect sense to them, no matter how many people watch the races on TV. I don't think TW Steel or Aeroport Castello were unhappy with Coronel or Porteiro racing in Macau or in Curitiba. Anyway, I'm pretty sure no sponsor is paying the whole 700k€ for a season (also because that's the price for a Seat, I know that BMWs are a lot cheaper!).
As for China, if your opinion about it goes for every nation then Volvo's effort makes no sense. I think that the WTCC should go back to Scandinavia because of Volvo's presence, but I can't see the reason why they should have a race in Germany, Holland AND Austria. There already is a Chinese championship, I believe, and there's the Macau Touring Car Championship anyway. They're not stupid, there has to be a reason if they want to host a World Championship race!
DTM is so successful also because you Germans just love it and love motorsports! They came here in Adria and there wasn't that much audience, actually. It's a hugely successful national championship, and of course is followed a lot abroad, but it's still less followed than the WTCC, as the 2010 TouringCarTimes statistics show.
The manufacturers asked for it to be a World Championship, that's why the WTCC was born and the ETCC was killed. BMW, Alfa Romeo, Seat and Chevrolet asked for it. Now, imagine an ordinary guy who knows nothing about motorsports. They see a huge ad poster in the streets with a BMW (or Seat, or Chevy, or whatever you like) with a firm's logo. Think about the effect of 'WHATEVER RACING FIA World Touring Car Championship official partner'; Then replace the word 'World' with 'European'. My marketing studies suggest me that European would cheapen the ad compared to World (but I may be wrong). I'm only suggesting that you either make a decision of going out on a global scale and you do the same thing as Dension or TW Steel did, or you choose for a national championship and do the same thing as Olsbergs did. They have both, and they decide! It's pretty obvious that there is room for both strategies, but if you scale down to a European championship, will you attract Olsbergs? Most likely not. Will you let Dension and TW Steel down? I think so, because with the same amount of money they buy a space on a European Touring Car Championship car instead of a WTCC.
Don't get me wrong, I get your point, and in an ideal world I would love to have 3 races in Italy, 3 in Germany, 3 in the UK, 2 in Spain and 1 in Scandinavia. But that would really make no sense. I think that if you can have a World Championship title then it's worth the money it costs and after all sponsors are interested in their brand coupled with a beautiful racing car in an FIA World championship, or they would invest in the many national championships we have!
We will see what the manufacturers really think about the championship in 2012, when we will have a clearer picture.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Falkenberg? By far the best track in Sweden for Touringcars.

Falkenberg is wonderful (albeit a tad short)

That is just one track, however, that they race on once a year compared to the rest of the schedule which sees Jyllandsringen x 2, Ring Knutstorp x 2, Gothenburg, and Karlskoga, neither of which is a fast, flowing track (I didn't include Mantorp in there as it's sort of in between).

Adding one more race at Falkenberg, a race at Kinnekulle and a race at Anderstorp would do wonders for the schedule. Kinnekulle needs a bit of work, sure, but it's not that much worse-looking than, say, Karlskoga.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Fancy a go? The Stockholm or Kalmar area could use a track.

Sure, I just need to win the Powerball lottery first

Speaking of the Stockholm area, perhaps that new test track (near Arlanda) could be used for something. With a bit of work, obviously.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

The DTM is successful because Germans enjoy being bored out of their skull watching tired, overpaid old F1 drivers amble around in a game of automotive chess (though that's being unfair to chess, which is far more exciting). That's the only explanation I've been able to come up with so far (and it's not like the series was any different pre-revival).

The success of the championship (WTCC) will not be in if it's a world championship or not. That might drag an extra manufacturer out or entice a sponsor, but it'll never be enough on its own. Had I the opportunity, I'd change everything about the WTCC. Because right now, this is what comes to mind when I think of it (just brainstorming)

* Performance balancing
* Drivers and teams whining over unfair advantages
* Dodgy stewarding
* Idiot rule makers
* Team orders
* Stale paddock
* Questinable spectator interest

And that's just of the top of my head - it illustrates why the championship is in the position it is in right now. This'll never happen, but they should drop all the non-european rounds, go for a V8 Supercar kind of car and race format, revamp the schedule, but most importantly of all, improve the show. It's not enough that the races might be good from time to time. When the ETCC rolls into town, you know they're brining action, excitement, access and character.
This needs to be reflected everywhere - the TV production, the fan access on track, the support package, having a real presence in the city close to the track - as I said, everywhere. That you use the V8's is part of bringing this excitement. Is the WTCC smart and capable enough (and have the balls) to achieve this? No sir, they do not. But someone might, once the series keels over.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Sure, I just need to win the Powerball lottery first

Speaking of the Stockholm area, perhaps that new test track (near Arlanda) could be used for something. With a bit of work, obviously.

Oh, I don't think it should be impossible to get a project going. Easy, no, but with a Stockholm track you've at least got a chance to run it as a business with a semi-sensible business idea.

What's that Arlanda track? I know they're building something up in Tierp, but that's only drag racing and off road. Seems to kind of miss the point given their tagline, but hey ho.

[duke_toaster]

I don't think the 5000cc V8s aspect of the V8 Supercars rules will fit though. I think 2000cc turbo is appropriate, but kicking out 400-450hp. Some sort of NGTC+ rules would be a good system.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Oh, I don't think it should be impossible to get a project going. Easy, no, but with a Stockholm track you've at least got a chance to run it as a business with a semi-sensible business idea.

What's that Arlanda track? I know they're building something up in Tierp, but that's only drag racing and off road. Seems to kind of miss the point given their tagline, but hey ho.

Here's a link: http://www.fastbikes.se/index.php/ny...gs-vid-arlanda
(Swedish only, I'm afraid.)

Seems the company behind it has little or no intention of bringing events there though and the Police has apparently signed a deal to rent it for the next 15 years, for driving practice.

Doesn't look like the biggest nor fastest track out there, but given the location I'm pretty sure it'd be able to draw a decent crowd nonetheless.