Occupy IndyCar & IMS

[fasteric]

thats great as far as forums..but who cares..lets see about the people who go to races , buy tickets , get excited about racing..not about about a bunch of losers who cant get off their ass to go see a race and then comment. i liked the 500 ..biggest ratings in along time..baltimore ..new fans liked the excitement of racing..maybe back..why drag the best sport in the dirt?

[fasteric]

I'm sorry..does every one here want NASCAR to rule?
get over the split..this is all we have!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by fasteric

I'm sorry..does every one here want NASCAR to rule?
get over the split..this is all we have!

I don't think it's about NASCAR ruling, it's about AWOR finding its purpose because quite frankly it doesn't have one.

Long gone are the days when Miller, etc promoted a race. What have you got now? Some unheard of promoter at a two bit oval in where?

[fasteric]

your right..its floundering to a certain extent..some of the promotion on the ovals will be Indycar buying the track time and promoting it. I think thats what ropin randy wants to do..be a player. he has backing from the the speedway and alot of major sponsors ..verizon,shell,izod,go daddy want that..but most of the excitement is at the new tracks like balt and others with promoters that want to take the sport as an alternitive to nascar. as i said before..the old oval track fan is gone to nascar..if speed and yes danger cant get them back..fine..but dont think that Indy 500 is going anywhere and when me and MS are dead ..it will still be racing.and i know its for another thread but maybe having a bill france and a bernie who know what racing is about and how to sell and struture it ...maybe indy needs a ruthless tyrant ..oh like a Hulman! or maybe MS can run it!

[fasteric]

and you always have bruton smith and his company looking to buy the speedway and the whole game changes!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by fasteric

your right..its floundering to a certain extent..some of the promotion on the ovals will be Indycar buying the track time and promoting it. I think thats what ropin randy wants to do..be a player. he has backing from the the speedway and alot of major sponsors ..verizon,shell,izod,go daddy want that..but most of the excitement is at the new tracks like balt and others with promoters that want to take the sport as an alternitive to nascar. as i said before..the old oval track fan is gone to nascar..if speed and yes danger cant get them back..fine..but dont think that Indy 500 is going anywhere and when me and MS are dead ..it will still be racing.and i know its for another thread but maybe having a bill france and a bernie who know what racing is about and how to sell and struture it ...maybe indy needs a ruthless tyrant ..oh like a Hulman! or maybe MS can run it!

Good post.

The inherent problem with the IRL/IndyCar has been, stll is lack of promoters.

Indy doesn't need a Bernie; look at F1, i's slowly imploding. It needs to go back to the early 90's. The blueprint is there.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Also I boycott everything to do with the speedway and any associated sponsors of the league. I refuse to watch on tv, any articles that pop up in Motorsport or Autosport I rip them out and put them in the burn pile.

The only way forward is to collapse the series and bring in new ownership and ideas. The current path is going down the tubes quick.

Absolutely ludricros statement.

Anyone who truly supports open wheel racing in America (and not a personal agenda) would not wish this to happen.

Indycar has many things going for it at the moment, many things to fix and improve on but beyond the events of the last fortnight, Indycar is in better place than 12, 14, 36 months ago.

[Carsandmotorracing]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Certainly some interesting ideas you put forth worthy of consideration.

I think it's important for everyone to keep putting their thoughts and opinions out there and make their voices heard.

Also I boycott everything to do with the speedway and any associated sponsors of the league. I refuse to watch on tv, any articles that pop up in Motorsport or Autosport I rip them out and put them in the burn pile.

The only way forward is to collapse the series and bring in new ownership and ideas. The current path is going down the tubes quick.

I knew you Crapwagoners were harsh but damn!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Absolutely ludricros statement.

Anyone who truly supports open wheel racing in America (and not a personal agenda) would not wish this to happen.

Indycar has many things going for it at the moment, many things to fix and improve on but beyond the events of the last fortnight, Indycar is in better place than 12, 14, 36 months ago.

IndyCar has nothing going for it. There's no money coming in, TV audiences are virtually zero, as is attendance at the race track. The only thing that keeps it going is Ganassi and Penske.

It's a bad series run by bad people.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Absolutely ludricros statement.

Anyone who truly supports open wheel racing in America (and not a personal agenda) would not wish this to happen.

Indycar has many things going for it at the moment, many things to fix and improve on but beyond the events of the last fortnight, Indycar is in better place than 12, 14, 36 months ago.

Nothing is improving at all so I don't know where you are but everything I have seen indicates it's a moribund series.

I firmly believe 100% that as long as series ownership remains with the hulman georges it will never improve. I've made a case for it tons of times, so I'm not going to bother rehashing it.

If you wish to believe otherwise, time will tell.

BTW I don't know where people get all this "personal agenda" gobblygook from. All I care about is a successful and prosperous American open wheel series with great cars and tracks and again that is not going to happen with the dweebs it currently has as owners.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

I knew you Crapwagoners were harsh but damn!

We play to win. I think everyone thought we would up and disappear but we are still going strong. CART or Champcar might be technically dead, but the cars live on, the history lives on and the community keeps that spirit alive. I think when history is written, people will look back on the 1990's CART as a pretty awesome time in motor racing history and in time you'll see a revival just as we did with Can-Am and Trans-Am in historic racing now.

I know plenty of other CART fans that feel the same way about the speedway and all associated with it. We boycott anything to do with them. Even when F1 went there to indy, nobody I can recall went to it, however plenty are keen on going to Austin or New Jersey.

[ujoint]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I wasn't aware this was specifically an irl forum. I've been a part of ten tenths for almost a decade because I have an interest in all motorsport.

Find me one post where I proclaimed my love for the irl. People there know I post here, as I have mentioned it plenty of times and my stance on tony george and the irl has never wavered one bit.

So good try but I am principled person and I am more than willing to speak up and debate what I believe in.

You might be undecided but don't pin it on me, because I am not and never will be "undecided".

The forum says Indycar Series and the thread says Occupy IndyCar & IMS. Sure looks pretty specific to me. Just sayin. BTW, you ever been over to the Wild Cherry or the Winners Circle?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Nothing is improving at all so I don't know where you are but everything I have seen indicates it's a moribund series.

I firmly believe 100% that as long as series ownership remains with the hulman georges it will never improve. I've made a case for it tons of times, so I'm not going to bother rehashing it.

If you wish to believe otherwise, time will tell.

BTW I don't know where people get all this "personal agenda" gobblygook from. All I care about is a successful and prosperous American open wheel series with great cars and tracks and again that is not going to happen with the dweebs it currently has as owners.

I would dispute attendances not being up in 2011.

As for tv, I would be amazed if these were down in 2010. Will see what the figures show.

The addition of Chevy is a definite improvement in addition to the new car.

Solid 25 plus car fields throughout 2011 has been an improvement on years gone by.

Randy Bernard is the best leader Indycar, Champcar has had in a decade.

Mountainstar - if you care about a successful and prosperous american open wheel series with great cars and tracks - where is this going to come from if not from IMS and Indy 500?

The 1980's and 1990's were a great time for Indycar but by enjoying those times doesnt mean you need to boycott these times.

Get your head out of the sand and have something constructive rather than providing posts relevant to a 2 year old.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

I would dispute attendances not being up in 2011.

As for tv, I would be amazed if these were down in 2010. Will see what the figures show.

The addition of Chevy is a definite improvement in addition to the new car.

Solid 25 plus car fields throughout 2011 has been an improvement on years gone by.

Randy Bernard is the best leader Indycar, Champcar has had in a decade.

Mountainstar - if you care about a successful and prosperous american open wheel series with great cars and tracks - where is this going to come from if not from IMS and Indy 500?

The 1980's and 1990's were a great time for Indycar but by enjoying those times doesnt mean you need to boycott these times.

Get your head out of the sand and have something constructive rather than providing posts relevant to a 2 year old.

I don't know how you can say Randy is the best Indycar leader. Even that shark Tony George never thought of stuffing 30 plus cars and a string of amateurs/jokers to race on a claustrophobic oval. The disconnect between reality and randy is dangerous. I just hope that recent experiences have knocked him down to earth presuming he'll survive in his position by the time next season comes around again.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

I would dispute attendances not being up in 2011.

As for tv, I would be amazed if these were down in 2010. Will see what the figures show.

The addition of Chevy is a definite improvement in addition to the new car.

Solid 25 plus car fields throughout 2011 has been an improvement on years gone by.

Randy Bernard is the best leader Indycar, Champcar has had in a decade.

Mountainstar - if you care about a successful and prosperous american open wheel series with great cars and tracks - where is this going to come from if not from IMS and Indy 500?

The 1980's and 1990's were a great time for Indycar but by enjoying those times doesnt mean you need to boycott these times.

Get your head out of the sand and have something constructive rather than providing posts relevant to a 2 year old.

I certainly would dispute attendances being up. Compared with last year, which was bad enough, I don't ever remember seeing so many empty grandstands. Milwukee, which should have had a great attendance, considering the events history was virtually empty.

The 1980s/90s were a great time for Indycar racing and Ropin' Randy ought to go back, when he does his Indycar history lessons and use the 80s and 90s as a blueprint to get the series back where it belongs.

One thing he'll learn, if he hasn't already, is Indycar was never a spec series. The best thing he could do is open up chassis consstruction to anyone who is interested. If there are no takers then so be it but at least give it a go.

[Xpunk75]

I think what everyone here is failing to see is that the world itself has changed drastically since the split. America itself is not the same country it was in 1996. Their is no quick fix for the Indycar series, no easy way out, the hole has been dug for 16 years and on top of that America as a country has dug itself in a hole for the past 10 years. The money is no longer out their for the teams or drivers and the series is being held together by the George family fortune.

In my opinion this year there was a cross roads where this series could have made the changes to fix itself and begin to set the building blocks to make AOWR a success again one day long into the future and give the sport an identity which it has lacked since the IRL's inception. In my opinion they turned left when they should have turned right and now only 6 months to try do whatever they can possible to this terrible Dallara chassis.

This Identity crisis has been around since the IRL started. From its inception it was a watered down version of the CART series which was a brilliant formula for the 90's. Then it became a high down force pack racing series that emulated NASCAR with a higher element of danger for the drivers. This formula hasn't worked at all for the IRL and is the reason TV ratings never get better and why grandstands are never filled with butts in the seats.

While I agree with most things Mountainstar says I don't believe that today's America would be that enthralled with the CART Formula as much as they were back in the 90's. I believe it would do better in the ratings and in attendance then the current IRL/Indycar formula we have today but I don't think it would rescue the sport from going bankrupt because in the end this is what happened to CART and Champcar.

AOWR needs an whole new Identity for the 21st century. It needs to shed all recognition it had with both CART and the IRL. If this series is going to be successful it needs to heal it's wounds that the split created with both CART and IRL fans and unite them with a revolutionary chassis that redefines the sport and its image and sets it far apart from Formula 1 and NASCAR. I think the Delta Wing was a great example of a radical design. I think you need throw out all driver aids and go back to a manual gear box and make these guy have to take their hand off of the wheel to shift gears. Make the sport about the Drivers and allow for the teams to make modification to the Chassis so that all the cars look a little different.

The bottom line AOWR in the 21st century needs go back to the basics. No driver aids, low downforce, insanely high amounts of Horsepower from turbocharged engines, more freedom in the rule book to allow for chassis modifications, and a revolutionary new look for the base model.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

I would dispute attendances not being up in 2011.

As for tv, I would be amazed if these were down in 2010. Will see what the figures show.

The addition of Chevy is a definite improvement in addition to the new car.

Solid 25 plus car fields throughout 2011 has been an improvement on years gone by.

Randy Bernard is the best leader Indycar, Champcar has had in a decade.

Mountainstar - if you care about a successful and prosperous american open wheel series with great cars and tracks - where is this going to come from if not from IMS and Indy 500?

The 1980's and 1990's were a great time for Indycar but by enjoying those times doesnt mean you need to boycott these times.

Get your head out of the sand and have something constructive rather than providing posts relevant to a 2 year old.

Well I think many would agree I have supplied a great many ideas and constructive posts over the years here, so you can lay off the personal attacks.

From the tv figures I looked at they were not any amazing improvement over last year, neither were crowd figures. If the irl was a great success they would not be turning over so many tracks and having to co promote events.

The irl is a consumer product I choose not to buy. If series ownership is handed to a professional, then I might consider otherwise, but I am not supporting the hulmangeorges and all their crazy fantasies.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

I would dispute attendances not being up in 2011.

As for tv, I would be amazed if these were down in 2010. Will see what the figures show.

The addition of Chevy is a definite improvement in addition to the new car.

Solid 25 plus car fields throughout 2011 has been an improvement on years gone by.

Randy Bernard is the best leader Indycar, Champcar has had in a decade.

Mountainstar - if you care about a successful and prosperous american open wheel series with great cars and tracks - where is this going to come from if not from IMS and Indy 500?

The 1980's and 1990's were a great time for Indycar but by enjoying those times doesnt mean you need to boycott these times.

Get your head out of the sand and have something constructive rather than providing posts relevant to a 2 year old.

I understand your point DRT.
I don't know what the viewing figures are but I'd be interested in the trends from the last 10 years.
Chevy is a welcome addition, as is Lotus if it comes to fruition.

I don't like the new car but I will not rubbish it until we see it run in competition and we see what the problems, if any, are.
I agree that Indycar has the best fields in years when 12 months ago some dire prophets were predicting the series would be dwindling to a whisper by years end.

You said Randy Bernard is the best leader Indycar has had in the last decade. If you mean by Indycar the Tony George IRL founder and his subsequent leadership group then you are correct. Randy B is the best, the most considerate reasonable and articulate of any of them and not deserving of the bilge flung at him by some commentators.

The 1980's and 90's were the best time for open wheel tarmac racing in North America but they can come again. The current cycle is not pleasant but it may just be a part of the cycle. There is not doubt the split was a mortal blow but I can see the hand of one B. Ecclestone quite delighted when it happened because up until then Indy car racing was potentially a rival to F1 internationally. The split finished all that overnight.

What we now have is a pale imitation of what we had 20 years ago, Sad but true but thays the effect of what was a truly selfish act, and not in the interests of the sport as a whole.
United you stand divided you fall.
Or 'what house divided against itself can stand'.

To see people supposedly wanting open wheel to succeed fighting the efforts of those who are actively trying to do something (even if mistakes are made-no one is perfect, least of all the critics) just reminds me of the temperament and self centred ego's that led to the original split in the mid nineties.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well I think many would agree I have supplied a great many ideas and constructive posts over the years here, so you can lay off the personal attacks.

From the tv figures I looked at they were not any amazing improvement over last year, neither were crowd figures. If the irl was a great success they would not be turning over so many tracks and having to co promote events.

The irl is a consumer product I choose not to buy. If series ownership is handed to a professional, then I might consider otherwise, but I am not supporting the hulmangeorges and all their crazy fantasies.

No one is suggesting a massive improvement mountainstar - any improvement is progress eg. car counts, chevy, baltimore, Indy 500, Belle Isle etc

Anyone expecting rapid overnight success doesn't understand the reality of the situation.

Who is talking 'great success' either. We are talking progress over 2009 and 2010.

BJ - tell me the last time Milwaukee had a great crowd - Champcar or Indycar? So I am not sure what your expectations were for this event?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

I would dispute attendances not being up in 2011.

As for tv, I would be amazed if these were down in 2010. Will see what the figures show.

The addition of Chevy is a definite improvement in addition to the new car.

Solid 25 plus car fields throughout 2011 has been an improvement on years gone by.

Randy Bernard is the best leader Indycar, Champcar has had in a decade.

Mountainstar - if you care about a successful and prosperous american open wheel series with great cars and tracks - where is this going to come from if not from IMS and Indy 500?

The 1980's and 1990's were a great time for Indycar but by enjoying those times doesnt mean you need to boycott these times.

Get your head out of the sand and have something constructive rather than providing posts relevant to a 2 year old.

The last sentence in this post was over the line, D.R.T.

Comment on the posts and don't personally attack the poster.

Now back to your regularly scheduled "discussion."

(mod hat off)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

BJ - tell me the last time Milwaukee had a great crowd - Champcar or Indycar? So I am not sure what your expectations were for this event?

I don't have those figures to hand but the race this year must have had the worst attendance ever, if the empty stands were anything to go by and it was run as an IndyCar event.

As it happens I downloaded the 2006 Champcar race from YouTube and the difference in attendance is quite staggering.

[mountainstar]

Milwaukee is dead unfortunately, another victim and last I heard the track isn't long for the world.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Milwaukee is dead unfortunately, another victim and last I heard the track isn't long for the world.

So Milwaukee succumbs to the Hulman Georges; how sad.

At least Silverstone got the better of Bernie.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

So Milwaukee succumbs to the Hulman Georges; how sad.

At least Silverstone got the better of Bernie.

No Milwaukee succumbs to the fair board that has been hostile to the track for decades.

I signed a petition back in the eighties to bring back fair races as they once had that fell on deaf hostile ears.
I suppose it is just like the Minnesota fair board; they hated the track and finally used the excuse that repaving would cost too much so it was torn up.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

No Milwaukee succumbs to the fair board that has been hostile to the track for decades.

I signed a petition back in the eighties to bring back fair races as they once had that fell on deaf hostile ears.
I suppose it is just like the Minnesota fair board; they hated the track and finally used the excuse that repaving would cost too much so it was torn up.

I stand corrected. Whatever the reason it's a loss to motor sport; a cracking track steeped in history.