Do you really want parity then?

[Woolley]

I miss the days when cars were based on their road cousins and so carried the traits - good and bad - of the base model. When manufacturers went racing to prove the thing you could buy was good (even if that wasn't really true), and where different cars were fast at different parts of the circuit or different times of the race.

Parity? Pah. Build a better road car.

[NZSTfan]

I see your point woolley, and i guess thats why we have production racing to cater for that.

But time has moved on, and the fact is a road car is so far away from the track going silhouette that the only way forward is to to have a common 'racing' platform to work off.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

If there is no rule written, that will just give the lawyers a job after the racing

Verbal instructions from officials carry the same weight as written rules in motor sport, that's why briefings are so critical for all to attend and participate.

It's just part of the fabric of the sport.

[Swedish Brick]

So true. My comment about lawyers was a hint at a certain class full of people from another class that used lawyers as a race tool almost as much as the Americas Cup!

I don't really see how you can hope to have a proper touring car class without brand "DNA"
Isn't touring cars without it.

[Ugy]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I miss the days when cars were based on their road cousins and so carried the traits - good and bad - of the base model. When manufacturers went racing to prove the thing you could buy was good (even if that wasn't really true), and where different cars were fast at different parts of the circuit or different times of the race.

Parity? Pah. Build a better road car.

Like the racing in NZ in the 70s.

Chrysler Chargers, Fords Minis Holdens all had there different traits, the Minis had there's in the corners.They would be behind in the straights but catch up in the corners and made exciting racing, not like these days to processional. I still think the way forward is back.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Ugy

Like the racing in NZ in the 70s.

Chrysler Chargers, Fords Minis Holdens all had there different traits, the Minis had there's in the corners.They would be behind in the straights but catch up in the corners and made exciting racing, not like these days to processional. I still think the way forward is back.

Fortunately you can see these very cars on tracks still.
Socram is doing his best to bring you what you want.
Its good to have choice isn't it?

[Alpina107]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

I don't really see how you can hope to have a proper touring car class without brand "DNA"
Isn't touring cars without it.

Agreed, touring cars do need DNA!

But does DNA come from a set of body panels? Hardly!

Or maybe body panels and an engine? Probably not!

Surely, it would have to include a full body shell (built by that same manufacturer) rather than a space-frame chassis built to a standard design.

Nothing against standardizing things to (possibly keep the budgets within reach) and to keep the racing close - that's what the public will pay to see. But let's not kid ourselves - neither ST, SC nor TLX are touring cars in the true sense.

Unfortunately, when the whole car is used, it often leads to domination by one marque - that's we saw when BMW won 8 of 10 NZTC championships between 1991 & 2000, using a rear-wheel drive car with independent suspension and great engines. (not to mention thorough preparation and top drivers) Most people didn't like that, so things changed.....

Nowadays, the playing field has been levelled to the point that we have Supertourers with a single engine regardless of the bodywork and a Camry TLX with a V8 engine, manual gearbox and rear-wheel-drive, none of which is available in a Camry ANYWHERE on the planet. (according to Wikipedia ) It's not really what you call DNA, is it?

But if the racing's close (and that doesn't mean processional) then people will put on their rose-tinted glasses and come to watch. In their minds, they will see Fords and Holdens and Toyotas (and Mercedes in SC) and will give their support accordingly. And as an entertainment medium, that's probably all that counts. However, if any of the series (including SC) starts to lose credibility, then people will stop coming and so will sponsors.

[Icarus_nz]

Fair post Alpina.
Thus far the discussion has been confined to SC, ST, ZV8.
Now lets include NASCAR

Racing is gladatorial. If the gladiator is the star then the chariot is irrelevant.
Do people attending a tennis care what racket is used or do they do to see the skill of the sportsperson with that tool?
In golf, major technological breakthroughs are tightly controlled because it is the skill of the golfer that folks pay to watch.

Sport is about people. Casual fans go to watch people and associate with 'their' star.

Relying in manufacturers is a double edge sword. History is littered with examples of how fickle they can be. Yet the passionate people still do racing. Its a drug.

The tribal thing is lowest common denominator - as is 'tits and bums' marketting.
Racing is about balance and nunce.
It is ballet with black boots.
This is why it is critical to educate the viewing public about what they are seeing and where to look.

So parity? At the premier level where it is the best against the best, absolutely.
Everybodies understanding and application of technology has come so far from the 'glory days' we can't afford anything else.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Racing is gladatorial. If the gladiator is the star then the chariot is irrelevant.
Do people attending a tennis care what racket is used or do they do to see the skill of the sportsperson with that tool?
In golf, major technological breakthroughs are tightly controlled because it is the skill of the golfer that folks pay to watch.

Sport is about people. Casual fans go to watch people and associate with 'their' star.

If that's your opinion on motorsport, you're following the wrong sport. Sure, theres one person in the spotlight, but its a whole team effort, not a single person, and cannot be compared to a game that involves a single competitor against others.

Its much about getting the most out of the driver, as it is getting the most out of the car. You wont see 100 people courtside working on a racket to get it to swing faster...

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

If that's your opinion on motorsport, you're following the wrong sport. Sure, theres one person in the spotlight, but its a whole team effort, not a single person, and cannot be compared to a game that involves a single competitor against others.

Its much about getting the most out of the driver, as it is getting the most out of the car. You wont see 100 people courtside working on a racket to get it to swing faster...

Oh believe me when I say that I know how important the team is to the sport. It is a people sport first and foremost.

[Goat Boy]

Today's Bathurst 12 hour was the best race I've seen in a long time, no parity or common chassis or anything, just hard out racing in cool cars. Just the way I like it.

[Senna05]

I think there is a few things we need to consider when talking about the changes from the 'good old days'.

I grew up in the Group A era - and I also have family that loved Group C and the traditional production era. I mean, can you not love a story about a ford driver rolling and copping orange halves in the face from the console where his co-drover kept them?

I think that there is a cross over between societal values and racing. In the 1980's and 1990's, we began having more regard for waste of human life. Be is the campaigns (right or wrong) against smoking and drinking, drugs and workplace safety, or the moves in racing to make things intrinsically safer.

We saw way too many young, talented drivers pass away when cars began to get faster, without the safety modifications. And, let's admit, while we all love to see a Mini hurtle around a track at 160km/h and a GTHO at 200+, these same cars would totally not handle a huge prang at the speeds we as spectators expect today. Some did not survive the prangs at the old speeds.

We as 'consumers' have come to expect certain things. Huge speeds, huge aero, and huge crashes where the driver gets out, waves, and goes back to find out how long it takes to fix his/her car.

This expectation is totally not going to happen with production DNA. There is a reason why most production car races are shorter, and have less expectations (and possibly even attendance).

Let us be completely honest. Do the current spec cars have real road car DNA? Not really. Do they protect their drivers? Yes. Are they probably easier to repair? Yes.

We saw a great race today at Bathurst - and surprise surprise - the cars involved ARE production cars, but cost as much as most spec built race cars. That is why they are as fast, as safe - but harder to repair.

I think we have gone beyond the point of no return - I think we reached that in 1986 in Australia - as Group A cars were production cars - purpose built for racing with safety in mind.

I had a rant a few months ago - I genuinely feel if you are dissatisfied with V8's, DTM, BTCC and other touring cars, then you should get to the Shannons rounds (as I do) and try to get into the types of cars you speak of on this thread. There the Mazda MPS or Lotii (minis's) take on the HSV's and Audi's (GTHO's, GTS') of the past. But, if you are not going to do that, I do hope you appreciate the safety and cost aspects that have been included to the speed and thrill spectacle that is spec built race cars.

Yours in motorsport....

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Today's Bathurst 12 hour was the best race I've seen in a long time, no parity or common chassis or anything, just hard out racing in cool cars. Just the way I like it.

Wasnt any different to the B24h in my opinion. The top 2 spots were already known baring any driver errors, which happened this weekend.

As much as i'm an Audi fan (and #23 failed to finish) it was still an awesome race.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Today's Bathurst 12 hour was the best race I've seen in a long time, no parity or common chassis or anything, just hard out racing in cool cars. Just the way I like it.

Was a good race - but let's not kid ourselves - whilst no common chassis, the GT3 class is built around parity, full stop. It's not parity in every little way though and that does mean that how each car makes up a lap time can vary.

Throw in rules controlling "pro" and "am" drivers, minimum lap time that incurred penalty if beaten and there is plenty of parity impacting on a race such as todays.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Was a good race - but let's not kid ourselves - whilst no common chassis, the GT3 class is built around parity, full stop. It's not parity in every little way though and that does mean that how each car makes up a lap time can vary.

Throw in rules controlling "pro" and "am" drivers, minimum lap time that incurred penalty if beaten and there is plenty of parity impacting on a race such as todays.

I reckon it could do with a bit more parity, get rid of the slow cars. they just cause safety cars which result in quite a dull race

and start playing hardball with cars that have to come in every few laps for mechanical issues, thats really ordinary.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I reckon it could do with a bit more parity, get rid of the slow cars. they just cause safety cars which result in quite a dull race.

Getting through traffic has always been apart of sports car racing, and i for one, hope it stays that way.

If you cant handle the heat....

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Getting through traffic has always been apart of sports car racing, and i for one, hope it stays that way.

If you cant handle the heat....

thats fine if you happy to twiddle your thumbs every 4th minute while they follow a safety car, then thats cool for you

if you want to watch the cars race and see how the cars really perfomr with strategy then getting rid of the slower cars needs to happen

130% is too much, lapping a car every 4 laps is too much. Reduce the slow car and improve the racing and still have to work your way through traffic just not with the same speed differential

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by peckstar

thats fine if you happy to twiddle your thumbs every 4th minute while they follow a safety car, then thats cool for you

was a shame they had alot of safety cars, this isn't NASCAR!

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

thats fine if you happy to twiddle your thumbs every 4th minute while they follow a safety car, then thats cool for you

if you want to watch the cars race and see how the cars really perfomr with strategy then getting rid of the slower cars needs to happen

130% is too much, lapping a car every 4 laps is too much. Reduce the slow car and improve the racing and still have to work your way through traffic just not with the same speed differential

WEC drivers manage fine (Note, the guy who won todays race also races in those races, its no surprise that there wasnt a single scratch on the yellow merc)

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

WEC drivers manage fine (Note, the guy who won todays race also races in those races, its no surprise that there wasnt a single scratch on the yellow merc)

really. most of the WECs have 50 cars run for 12 hours have 8 classes and have 40 seconds seperating the grid do they?

[TWRv12]

Bigger question is what manufacturers can afford not to have parity?

Most of them are very poor shape. Just the week Pug wrote off €4billion, Ford Europe lost couple too, ever dare to look up the Fiat share price etc.. Most are cutting capacity.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

really. most of the WECs have 50 cars run for 12 hours have 8 classes and have 40 seconds seperating the grid do they?

WEC has 4 classes, but with different drivers (pro and am drivers) effectively making it 6 classes. The closing distance of a P1 car vs a GTEAM car would be no different to the mercs on the class e cars at bathurst.

Other classes of endurance racing manage to drive with 50+ cars (for 24 hours) so once again, its not really an argument (how many safety cars does V8SC have at bathurst, in 7ish hours, when ALL the cars are the same.................................)

If you cant get it after this post, you wont get it, so please dont respond to me

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

WEC has 4 classes, but with different drivers (pro and am drivers) effectively making it 6 classes. The closing distance of a P1 car vs a GTEAM car would be no different to the mercs on the class e cars at bathurst.

Other classes of endurance racing manage to drive with 50+ cars (for 24 hours) so once again, its not really an argument (how many safety cars does V8SC have at bathurst, in 7ish hours, when ALL the cars are the same.................................)

If you cant get it after this post, you wont get it, so please dont respond to me

for once i agree with you. I will never get why anyone would want to sit around and twiddle there thumbs for 1 in every 4 minutes while we wait for another Safety Car. If your happy with that then good for you.

If your not then they need to reduce the amount of slower cars

for the record, last year the 1000 had 6 safety cars for a total of 12 laps. It did not have a safety car in the last 2.5 hours and so the cars ran flat out and 19 cars finished on the lead lap, with a margin of just 1 second separating that top two cars at the end

By the way, heres Paul treswell from the lemans commentary team

“You don’t need any more cars,” said Truswell. “If anything, you could have less cars and have it as a much more predominately GT race, which would greatly reduce the number of incidents.

maybe its you who will never get it

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

for once i agree with you. I will never get why anyone would want to sit around and twiddle there thumbs for 1 in every 4 minutes while we wait for another Safety Car. If your happy with that then good for you.

If your not then they need to reduce the amount of slower cars

for the record, last year the 1000 had 6 safety cars for a total of 12 laps. It did not have a safety car in the last 2.5 hours and so the cars ran flat out and 19 cars finished on the lead lap, with a margin of just 1 second separating that top two cars at the end

By the way, heres Paul treswell from the lemans commentary team



maybe its you who will never get it

Cool story bro. Needs more dragons though

[peckstar]

he has alot more experience than you and also watched all the race.

Why do we need cars that are seperated by 40 seconds a lap?