Possible changes to UK flag signals

[brian_bury]

the best way to enforce the flags is to hit the driver ,,, not the team ,,, in the pocket the MSA/CofC have to get tougher and start to fining the bad drivers ,,or in extreme cases banning drivers from one or two races , and then if the continue to ignore flags take away the licence ,, they have to start to take the responsibility for there actions

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by White flag man

So why not just put out a safety car?

Money, or am I being cynical?

[brian_bury]

the best way to enforce the flags is to hit the driver ,,, not the team ,,, in the pocket the MSA/CofC have to get tougher and start to fining the bad drivers ,,or in extreme cases banning drivers from one or two races , and then if the continue to ignore flags take away the licence ,, they have to start to take the responsibility for there actions

[brian_bury]

sorry for the double reply something wet daft on my pc ,, and before you lot get at e I know its me that cant work it lol

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Money, or am I being cynical?

[Slipstick]

Having, over the years, seen this from both sides, in the car trying to stay safe without getting slowed down too much by flags waved for no apparent reason and from outside with flags trying to provide important information to drivers who seem determined to ignore them :

I hope the real problem the MSA proposal is intended to solve is that a stationary flag is genuinely not easy to spot when the driver is busy doing other things like trying to get the car to point in the direction it's supposed to go, brake late without hitting anyone etc. Waved flags catch the eye a lot better, particularly if they're actually a nice bright yellow rather than a muddy light brown.

I'd like to think of something better than 1 waved followed by 2 waved for pure practicality because like many of us I'm often flagging solo and only have the normal number of arms. But I can't think of anything better. It's not really enough to say it's fine as it is and in the same breath say drivers don't seem to obeying the flags. They will always say they didn't see a flag and in a fair few cases that will actually be true. If we can make flag warnings more visible we will all be safer and there will be less excuses possible.

I can't see much point waving the green because, having seen the yellow, they're now actively looking for that one .

The Battenburg was never well understood and certainly in my limited experience it was very poorly explained in driver briefings. If it is reintroduced it must operate like a Code 60 (or 80 or whatever speed)....and critically speeds MUST be properly checked. When a few drivers from major championships have been fined and excluded from results for beating the appropriate lap time it will soon start working for everyone.

Steve

[Andy Johns]

Only seen Code 60 in Dubai, which works very well, but the circuit has three timing points so would our circuits have to put more in, or leave the drivers to race to the finish line before dropping to 60 clicks?

[KayBee]

Why can't we copy the bikes, who have a designated Safety Car flag, and use the Battenburg flag for that purpose with Safety Car?

The yellow flag could then be used to show where the incident is.

Of course the FIA will have to add the Battenburg flag to its flag portfolio.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I hope the real problem the MSA proposal is intended to solve is that a stationary flag is genuinely not easy to spot when the driver is busy doing other things like trying to get the car to point in the direction it's supposed to go, brake late without hitting anyone etc. Waved flags catch the eye a lot better, particularly if they're actually a nice bright yellow rather than a muddy light brown.

If feasible I like the idea of double waved and waved single before. It just makes it easier to see, which is a good thing. Generally there is no need to make the driving part easier, but that is safety and anything that makes that easier and more natural is good.

[exflagman]

A 'stationary' yellow does not have to be held absolutely motionless - no harm in moving it about a bit until you are sure the driver has seen it. If we could just persuade the drivers to acknowledge the fact that they have seen the flag, then most of the problem is solved - I guess they could always penalise those who fail to do so.

Best penalty I came across for driver's found guilty of ignoring yellows was the one the HSCC used some years ago - had to spend a day on the bank before they were allowed to race with the club again.
Don't know if it worked or not but it was entertaining whenever I was given the task of 'instructing' one of them - one even enjoyed it enough to come back the next day!

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Best penalty I came across for driver's found guilty of ignoring yellows was the one the HSCC used some years ago - had to spend a day on the bank before they were allowed to race with the club again.
Don't know if it worked or not but it was entertaining whenever I was given the task of 'instructing' one of them - one even enjoyed it enough to come back the next day!

.............And it's a good chance to learn from them about their view of the flags and the best time/position to display them.
I did a marshals track day at the old Snetterton once. The only flag I properly saw was at a post that flag marshals complained was too far back, Fantasy Island!!.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by brian_bury

the best way to enforce the flags is to hit the driver...

...with the flag.

Don't mind the battenburg coming back as long as it's used properly - in both directions NOW (and better still called over a network) and not waiting for the leader to reach the startline and ambushing him with it.

As for the rest, no. Just properly enforce the current flag signals - because if they're obeyed we don't need SC/Battenburg/Code something.

As for double waved - just think of the practicality. You're on your own (as usual). You have the yellow in your hand, blue and green as handy as possible (given the poor design of most flag points and a wet, windy day). Later in the race you'll probably have swapped yellow for blue. Something spins, you're now required to wave the one you've got while finding the other - or swap the one you've got and find two more - in an instant as to delay risks the incident escalating. Do these ideas come from someone who doesn't stand on a flag point too often?

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Woolley

...with the flag.

Don't mind the battenburg coming back as long as it's used properly - in both directions NOW (and better still called over a network) and not waiting for the leader to reach the startline and ambushing him with it.

As for the rest, no. Just properly enforce the current flag signals - because if they're obeyed we don't need SC/Battenburg/Code something.

As for double waved - just think of the practicality. You're on your own (as usual). You have the yellow in your hand, blue and green as handy as possible (given the poor design of most flag points and a wet, windy day). Later in the race you'll probably have swapped yellow for blue. Something spins, you're now required to wave the one you've got while finding the other - or swap the one you've got and find two more - in an instant as to delay risks the incident escalating. Do these ideas come from someone who doesn't stand on a flag point too often?

If ever!

[Paul Newns]

I like the idea of a waved green. Drivers often complain, with some justification, that they haven't seen the green after the incident. Background colours often obscure green flags so I'd support that.

Double waved yellows should only be used for serious incidents (track blocked, etc.). Waving two flags isn't that difficult but circuits need to invest in lighter flags than they currently have. Broom handles are too long and heavy.

SC boards need attaching to flag points (as at Donington) or attaching somehow (e.g. to an upright post or clipping to debris fencing) so that they don't need to be held. Hazard boards always seen to be (with certain exceptions such as Anglesey) so it shouldn't be too difficult to sort something suitable.

The Battenburg or 60 flag, or something similar could be made to work if it was adopted uniformly and drivers briefed clearly so that they knew what it meant and how they were to react to it. One problem with the Battenburg was that some clubs used it, others didn't, so drivers weren't used to it.

I don't know what consultation the MSA is proposing but can they please talk to some experienced flaggies, and drivers at all levels, to see what the current problems are and how they can be best overcome before imposing new rules which something that is unsuitable from one side.

[SouthportFC Fan]

Someone may have made this point and I've missed it, but the adoption of a 'FIA' flag signalling system relies on the fact that there are usually sufficient numbers of marshals available. For a FIA meeting, there usually are. There may be only one flag marshal on a post, but there are usually sufficient incident marshals available so that a trainee can be 'given the opportunity to gain some initial flagging experience' by holding up the SC board if necessary no matter the size of a nearby incident.

I now pause for the reply 'But Post 99 at Silverhatch Park' is nowhere near anyone else, so that's not an option !!

Adopting this system for some club meetings won't work, and these will be the meetings that have small uninteresting fields.

Other Club meetings that are well supported will not have an issue with this change.

Adopting the FIA system through all levels of circuit-based car racing makes sense. I can't think of another sport where the signals given by officials are different for different levels of the sport.

[Greem]

Without commenting on the proposal itself, it's worth pointing out that this is a *consultation document *.

If you have a coherent, cogent point in support of or in opposition to the suggestions put forward, respond to the consultation. But please don't respond with "all change is bad, make the drivers do X Y and Z, I'll leave if this goes through". You have a voice with the MSA, please use it wisely and tell them of legitimate concerns.

If you don't respond, don't moan when changes happen (whether you like them or not).

[Richard Duvall]

To help understand the debate, can someone provide brief definitions of Battenburg and Code 60?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Richard Duvall

To help understand the debate, can someone provide brief definitions of Battenburg and Code 60?

Briefly, the Battenberg in effect used the race leader as a safety car - other drivers were supposed to form a "train" behind the leader, at normal safety car speeds - while Code 60 requires all drivers to slow down to 60 km/h over the full circuit, maintaining existing gaps.

[Mark Mitchell]

Remember my briefing once for the "Battenburg" Flag ......... "In The 2CV Race, All Cars Must Speed Up To Around 50MPH"

[adstubbs]

Silly question maybe, but as the people who will be in implementing the changes on the frontline, can we submit our own opinions to the Race Committee?

[The Fat Clerk]

If the 'Battenberg' does come back let's hope all clubs use it. Last time, BARC for one didn't

[dave vass]

I have witnessed occasions recently where the safety car just doesn't work, the prime example being with the British GTs at Silverstone. I have what I think is a good alternative and have told many people about this. For over ten years I was Steward of the Meeting at short circuit racing around the Incarace tracks. Whenever we had a serious problem requiring racing to be suspended, we went full course yellow which meant stop racing and proceed round to the start line without overtaking. Whilst the incident was cleared up, the cars were checked to be in race order and then sent off on one lap behind the pace (safety) car and then racing resumed. I can't see any reason why a simple solution like this can't be used on the circuits, (obviously using a race suspension flag, probably a red for this). The advantages of this being that the racing cars don't have to trundle round for lap after lap (which seems pointless) and the marshals have a safe environment to work in (which they don't at present whilst cars are tearing round the track trying to catch up the safety car train).
What's the problem with that?

[dave vass]

I think I saw that very same idea that I have just described used in the GT Open race at Zandvort the weekend before last.

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Chigley

OK; track blocked/partially obstructed and with a respectable oil slick, that equates to three flags (at the moment according to the proposed consultation). PC is busy on radio/phone so no help there, your flagging single handed, your other two bodies (I'm being generous with manpower) are moving out to assess drivers, damage etc. Whereas a flaggie could cover the incident with a waved yellow and agitated change of surface flag you're now scuppered; which flag do you drop or are we to grip the third flag with our teeth or wave it from where the sun don't shine.

Surely, your post displays the DWY, and sends it's marshals to deal with the incident, leaving the preceeding post with it's SWY to agitate the COS flag (they may also have spare marshals to assist with a second yellow, if required).

It should be obvious to anyone arriving at the scene then, that the change of surface indicated at the previous post is quite likely to still be present at this post, given the fact you have bits of car spread all over the place.

Failing that, I am sure the Med Centre or Rescue have some attachments that could be used to assist!

Mind you, having said that, it didn't work to well on P23 at Brands on Saturday, despite the Torrey Canyon parking in the gravel, with a slick from the bridge, we still had two surprised and perplexed looking visitors arriving backwards through the gravel.

added after reading the rest of the thread.....
I like the suggestion of fixing the SC to a swinging arm of some kind, and I am sure that something similar could be done for the Battenburg flag. A call from Race Control for Code60 (or Code37.2823 as it would have to be here) and a single manned post swings the board out and puts it on display - would negate the need for long periods of flag waving, and leave both hands free for your DWY to deal with the incident.

[SouthportFC Fan]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

I like the suggestion of fixing the SC to a swinging arm of some kind, and I am sure that something similar could be done for the Battenburg flag. A call from Race Control for Code60 (or Code37.2823 as it would have to be here) and a single manned post swings the board out and puts it on display - would negate the need for long periods of flag waving, and leave both hands free for your DWY to deal with the incident.

Something else flag marshals will need to have available when on post - five or six strong bulldog clips so that the SC board can be attached to the hazard board and put into position.

PS. I know some of you hankie wavers do it already ....