[Team] Racing Point: What now for Force India

[Mike Harte]

Metaphorically, the noose is tightening for Mallya. The Indian government have now suspended his passport (one assumes that he hasn't managed to get another country to issue him with one), and along with the formal extradition papers being prepared for presentation to a UK court in due course, the Indian gov't has also written to the UK gov't seeking their co-operation in his extradition.

This would seem to indicate that the only GP that Mallya will be able to attend this year will be at Silverstone. Not exactly a rallying call for prospective, or existing for that matter, investors and sponsors to the team.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Metaphorically, the noose is tightening for Mallya. The Indian government have now suspended his passport (one assumes that he hasn't managed to get another country to issue him with one), and along with the formal extradition papers being prepared for presentation to a UK court in due course, the Indian gov't has also written to the UK gov't seeking their co-operation in his extradition.

This would seem to indicate that the only GP that Mallya will be able to attend this year will be at Silverstone. Not exactly a rallying call for prospective, or existing for that matter, investors and sponsors to the team.

Bob Fernley and Bernie will probably be taking care of that....

Bob an ex second hand car salesman isn't he? He'll be wheeling and dealing in the background.

[Casper]

Why does BE like to be associated with people of suspect ethics and morals in his professional capacity?? Anyone?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Casper

Why does BE like to be associated with people of suspect ethics and morals in his professional capacity?? Anyone?

Because he has the same ethics?

[Peter Mallett]

I thought he came from Thurrey!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Because he has the same ethics?

I am not sure he does. If he was untrustworthy and dishonest I doubt he could have built up F1 from where it was to today as no one would have dealt with him. You could be right but that is just the way I see him.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Casper

I am not sure he does. If he was untrustworthy and dishonest I doubt he could have built up F1 from where it was to today as no one would have dealt with him. You could be right but that is just the way I see him.

Trust and integiry is about many different things, I think when people say BE is can be trusted what they mean is if he promises he will do some specific thing for you he will do it and from what I hear he totally lives up to that.

On the other hand in a more abstract sense there are questions like:

Can he be trusted to stay the right side of the law, spirit as well as letter?
Can he be trusted to give everyone a fair chance?
Can he be trusted not to go behind your back?
Can he be trusted not to stitch someone up if it suits him?
Can he be trusted to look after the interests of the fans?

On these and many other questions I don't think he comes out so well.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Casper

I am not sure he does. If he was untrustworthy and dishonest I doubt he could have built up F1 from where it was to today as no one would have dealt with him. You could be right but that is just the way I see him.

The German bribary case.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by FIRE

The German bribary case.

Mr E is a man of his times; an old fashioned wheeler-dealer, who is typical of men from that period. I knew many in the motor trade back in the sixties, and he would have been quite happy in their company.

As for the German case, my own view on it is that the real truth probably lies somewhere between the stories of the two men; the banker who knew some facts that would have been expensive to deal with if they became public, and an Arthur Daley type character that didn't want the truth known. To be charitable, I would rather call it a gift to the banker, and I don't for one moment believe that it was given to facilitate the sale of FOM to CVC. Far too many people who were involved in the sale have all agreed that CVC paid over the valuation placed on FOM, and that there was no other genuine buyer in competition with CVC. The American hedge fund never put forward a formal proposal, and that is why the court case that they brought, failed.

[BSchneiderFan]

To return to the point of the thread, might Haas' success so far tempt someone from outside F1 to come in and buy Force India, then source all of their non-listed parts from Mercedes?

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

To return to the point of the thread, might Haas' success so far tempt someone from outside F1 to come in and buy Force India, then source all of their non-listed parts from Mercedes?

They are already using Mercedes engine + drivetrain and gearbox since, what, 2009?

Sent from my SM-G9250 using Tapatalk

[Casper]

Haas is a team that did more than buy a few bits and go racing, they were already a very experienced race team who came up with a plan and had the right people to put that plan in place. The difference between them and someone who does not understand racing is profound and I don't think they can be held up as shining lights for the world to see without understanding the background. F1 are a good middle grid team and without all the dodgy dealings that surround them and the bloke who is/was the team owner would most probably improve or we could only hope so. All the ingredients are already there or seem to be so they would not need the customer approach that Haas elected to take.

[djinvicta]

Don't think we can "write off" Vijay yet. Money "talks" in every Country and the UK has not agreed to turn him over to India yet.

[Paradise City]

If there was wasn't so many crooks, jail-birds or near jail-birds in F1; you might get more wanting to have a crack at it. The fact that a guy like Branson bailed after a brief stint should tell you all you need to know. Bernie running his mouth off sends a chill wind over F1 that deters plucky billionaires from taking the plunge. It's a subtle thing but F1 just isn't as romantic as it was in the 80s when you had these tycoon entrepreneurs setting up their teams. Of course some of those types wound up in jail as well...but I won't undermine my own comment by placing too much emphasis on that.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Casper

F1 are a good middle grid team and without all the dodgy dealings that surround them and the bloke who is/was the team owner would most probably improve or we could only hope so. All the ingredients are already there or seem to be so they would not need the customer approach that Haas elected to take.

It wouldn't take much, logistically and resources wise for any potential new owners to do the 'Haas thing' though, except I think that the FIA closed a regs loophole that enable Haas to do the Ferrari thing in the first place?

[Mike Harte]

Branson is a poor example; he is not very good at spending his own wealth on his projects, but he is great at using his Virgin brand to generate publicity. He was never interested in F1 per se, it was just a "vehicle" to splash his brand around the beautiful people. As soon as it became obvious that he would need to inject his own cash into the project, he bailed out.

[BSchneiderFan]

Slightly off-topic, but relates to cash flow problems: http://www.autosport.com/news/report...finance-issues

Monisha sounding very defensive. I hope Sauber can make it.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Don't think we can "write off" Vijay yet. Money "talks" in every Country and the UK has not agreed to turn him over to India yet.

from a legal standpoint the British gov't may not be able to compel Mallya to leave the UK (as a resident of the UK he does have certain rights) but from a political standpoint i dont think any court or politician is willing to be associated with helping a wealthy person avoid answering accusations of money laundering and/or improper use of tax dollars.

maybe its just good (or bad depending on your viewpoint) timing due to the proximity of the release of the 'Panama Papers'.

public perception has changed to the point where i dont think the UK can afford to be seen as a haven for Non Resident Indians hiding from the Indian gov't.

but if he does find a legal reason to compel the UK gov't into letting him stay, his remaining as the team principle for an F1 team must come to an end.

again public perception has changed and allowing VM to maintain his role with the team only serves to reinforce what many now think about F1...its a play thing for the super rich which in and of itself has become an offensive paradigm but doubly so given how much money they want and need from the fans to help subsidize the activities of those same wealthy people.

up until recently, F1's allure of exclusivity and a playground for the super wealthy romanticized the sport...today it is a reason for people to stay away and with TV numbers falling so much im not sure how much leeway F1 has (or how much sense it makes) in protecting VM's position.

imo F1 needs to get ahead of this scandal and ask him to step down in his role as team principle. they probably should have done it a long time ago really.

so i agree money does talk and VM's inclusion makes it harder for FOM/CVC to make money.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

from a legal standpoint the British gov't may not be able to compel Mallya to leave the UK (as a resident of the UK he does have certain rights) but from a political standpoint i dont think any court or politician is willing to be associated with helping a wealthy person avoid answering accusations of money laundering and/or improper use of tax dollars.

maybe its just good (or bad depending on your viewpoint) timing due to the proximity of the release of the 'Panama Papers'.

public perception has changed to the point where i dont think the UK can afford to be seen as a haven for Non Resident Indians hiding from the Indian gov't.

but if he does find a legal reason to compel the UK gov't into letting him stay, his remaining as the team principle for an F1 team must come to an end.

again public perception has changed and allowing VM to maintain his role with the team only serves to reinforce what many now think about F1...its a play thing for the super rich which in and of itself has become an offensive paradigm but doubly so given how much money they want and need from the fans to help subsidize the activities of those same wealthy people.

up until recently, F1's allure of exclusivity and a playground for the super wealthy romanticized the sport...today it is a reason for people to stay away and with TV numbers falling so much im not sure how much leeway F1 has (or how much sense it makes) in protecting VM's position.

imo F1 needs to get ahead of this scandal and ask him to step down in his role as team principle. they probably should have done it a long time ago really.

so i agree money does talk and VM's inclusion makes it harder for FOM/CVC to make money.

It really won't be the British gov't that decides on whether he remains or not, it will be courts that will rule on the matter. As he is not a British citizen, his options are somewhat limited especially if the extradition treaty between the UK and India allow for the crimes that he is alleged to have committed. There is a possibility that the Home Secretary could overrule the courts, but I think that this is unlikely in this case especially as his properties, at least 3 of them including the one that he bought from Anthony Hamilton (Lewis' dad) for £11.5 million, are implicated in offshore arrangements and may have been purchased using some of the money allegedly siphoned out of India.

The problem that F1 has with Mallya, as with Mr E before, is that although they may be accused of economic crimes, no court has yet found them guilty of anything. The only thing economical that the courts in the UK could find about BCE was his truthfulness, whilst his payment into the court in Germany ensured that they didn't find anything at all.

Mallya must be champing at the bit because he likes to be seen surrounded by sycophants, and he can't do that whilst only able to stay in the UK. And I can see a time coming when the Indian courts will attempt to sequester all his assets in the UK, leaving him no option but to return to India to answer the charges. If he is truly innocent of them then he should have nothing to fear.

[GT6]

All the talk is about him rather than the team, the flow of cash into the team is now probably not that great and in order to continue then it will either require a new investor or money from F1 itself and i think that goes the same for sauber, F! eats up cash very quickly and with other teams looking good at the moment the smaller advertisers will be looking at them for a good return on their cash

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The problem that F1 has with Mallya, as with Mr E before, is that although they may be accused of economic crimes, no court has yet found them guilty of anything. The only thing economical that the courts in the UK could find about BCE was his truthfulness, whilst his payment into the court in Germany ensured that they didn't find anything at all.

does the FIA require a criminal conviction to ban someone from the sport though?

at the least i think its fair to say that ,right or wrong, BE's level of importance to the sport places him in a different category to VM.

slightly different comparison in that Flav and Symonds misdeeds were directly related to a motorsports race but the FIA didnt require a criminal conviction to hand down their bans.

if the Indian courts rule against VM in his absence and seek to place liens and appropriate his property, which is looking increasingly likely, what happens if and when they try to take hold of his F1 assets? is the sport supposed to wait for that to happen first?

surely everything is shielded and protected through a myriad of shell corporations but the perception will taint F1 regardless and that is exactly the type of thing which people have become fed up with.

in all likelihood FOM, CVC, FIA will do nothing proactively and will wait for the PR fallout before they do anything, if they even want to do anything at all.

for me though it would be nice if they did do something proactively for a change and really it costs them nothing to look to exclude VM and may even help them to build up some goodwill among the fans they are currently bleeding away.

[Mike Harte]

I hear what you are saying, chillibowl, but if the FIA steps in to the Mallya problem, who is it going to benefit?

His chum Roy is behind bars in India and has to find about a $1 billion that the authorities there want as a surety for bail. The problem faces is that he can't raise the cash because the very fact that he is desperate is forcing the price that buyers are prepared to pay for his assets right down. Sahara, which is Roy, own some prize assets such as hotels that would normally have suitors fighting over. In this instance, the best offers are only about a third of a fairly lowly valuation.

I don't think that there would be many suitors for Force India at the moment, and I don't think that Mallya or Roy are in a position to sell.

[chillibowl]

fair point...who would it benefit? other then my indignation of course.

the wider public's perception of the sport is one thing but with no certainty can i attest to how that translates over to viewing numbers.

many wont care, others will chalk it up to business as usual, but one has to think that these types of scandals still have a negative affect.

so i would say the benefit would be to F1, its fans and its sponsors who dont want to risk becoming more associated with the culture of the super rich while trying to sell consumer goods to us fans.

that Mallya and Roy cant get an equitable return on their f1 investment is not a big concern for me although i would think that selling now at a lower price today and having a chance to keep some of that money is still better then waiting for a sale conducted by the Indian gov't who will no doubt want to keep all of the money for themselves.

anyways, i think we agree with the fact that the guy is a clown. just no sure what the best way to go about getting rid of him is though.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

fair point...who would it benefit? other then my indignation of course.

Baking soda or something like Gaviscom would help you with that ailment.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Baking soda or something like Gaviscom would help you with that ailment.

haha!

i find complaining about things here is all the relief i need.