I think Honda have made a big mistake

[Super Tourer]

Guy

I can't see EJ wanting to be relegated from 'bride to bridesmaid' by Honda. I'm sure he'll want a clean break, with a hefty pay off to pay for cossie engines instead.

In anycase Honda probably want to learn their lesson and focus entirely on one team, and not get involved with a 'customer' team at this stage.

[Stephen Green]

ST, if Eddie can get 'works' Mugen Hinda's as opposed to paying for customer Cosworths, which route do you really think he will take? Come on now, it's not rocket science is it.

[synicaldave]

thats what happens if you sack yourworkforce to buy another yacht and **** around in Monaco!

[Stephen Green]

Sacking a percentage of the workforce was a good business decision. What EJ does with his own personal wealth is for he and his family to decide. You should not confuse one with the other.

By the way, welcome to ten-tenths synicaldave, I hope you have a good time here and please join in the generally good humoured banter in the forums!

[Super Tourer]

Stephen

I think from what we've seen in the press, Honda want to entirely focus on one team, I can't see any point in them supplying Jordan with 'works' Mugen Honda's.

If they supply Jordan with 2003 spec engine's, then surely they would be back in the same boat they are now, and I can't imagine EJ wanting 2002 spec Honda's can you?

It's quicker and ultimately cheaper for Honda to write out a cheque for EJ, tear up the contract and focus on a single team attack.

Next year is massively important for Honda, having being humbled by Toyota in their first year, Honda undoubtedly know that Toyota will be stronger next year - and they can't really afford for their arch rival to show them the way for much longer.

[calais]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
ST, if Eddie can get 'works' Mugen Hinda's as opposed to paying for customer Cosworths, which route do you really think he will take? Come on now, it's not rocket science is it.

if the compensation package from honda is the same as what the cosworths will cost, no its not rocket science.
i'd take the cosworths any day!!!!

[Bononi]

Originally posted by Super Tourer
Next year is massively important for Honda, having being humbled by Toyota in their first year, Honda undoubtedly know that Toyota will be stronger next year - and they can't really afford for their arch rival to show them the way for much longer.

That's the point.

Definetely Honda will focus his efforts in one team, and Jordan won't be that one. In order to survive, EJ will have to face a customer engine. If another supplier could come in, they should be starting now, and I think nothing like that is happening behind the scenes.

I predict at max 2 years more until EJ sells the team.

[Stephen Green]

I agree in part but Mugen Honda is not quite the same company as Honda Motor Corporation as far as I am aware. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong of course.

You are also correct in your view that Honda only wish to supply one team as far as I can see or have read, but I still wonder at the logic of choosing BAR over Jordan given the record each team has. To date BAR have done nothing other than drain the vaults of BAT, hence their eagerness to offload BAR despite tobacco bans etc. At least Jordan have a proven record in F1 and have in past years made steps forward using a fraction of the funding available to other teams, especially BAR.

I think on some of the matters we will just have to agree to disagree

Take care and very best regards,

Stephen.

[neilap]

"having being humbled by Toyota in their first year"

Sorry, I beg to differ here. Toyota has consistently been out qualified by the Honda teams. They are consistently faster in the races too. The only issue that Honda had was being down on hp which is all but solved now. The Toyota motor has been around for at least 2 years on the cars. So it is proven, tested and fully developed. Toyota is about as far as they are going to be with that motor. Honda's new motor was just that, new. When is the last time Toyota scored a point. The points were luck not pace.

BAR is obviously the better business choice. Jordan is faster now but I feel they are at their peak. BAR will have the funds and the resources to compete with the best. I feel that with a young hungry driver (Sato), a veteran driver and new management the team will be much improved and it will reflect in the cars performance. Now, in my opinion there is just one more change necessary; a new hungry driver

[Guy Goddard2]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
I agree in part but Mugen Honda is not quite the same company as Honda Motor Corporation as far as I am aware. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong of course.

Stephen.

Exactly, they operate as two seperate companies (or did) and the last Mugan Honda engine was up their with the best hence the success in 99.
To say the Mugen engine is playing second best to the factory engine would be unfair as you only have to compare eachs track record recently to see who has done the better job.
If Mugen can supply EJ with an engine on par with the facory unit and totally focus on Jordan I see no reason why he would dismiss it apart from feeling bitter about losing out to BAR.
lets look at it closely a tie up with Factory Honda is not at present an ingreident for success unlike Mugen who already have proved what they can do.
I still I am not covinved at going down the Cosworth route as you may as well go Ferrari power.


Guy

[av8rirl]

EJ is being very quiet throughout all of this. I expect either nothing will change or EJ has something good already in the pipeline. He's not survived in F1 for over 10 years with small budgets for no reason. He ALWAYS has an ace up his sleeve.

[kmchow]

There's been mention of Cosworth--do you mean Cosworth(??)Jaguar or a totally separate engine design by Cosworth? Isn't Cosworth now owned by the VAG??

OTOH, didn't the Mugen Honda engine have a little unofficial help from Honda? Now that Honda has it's own official program, would Mugen be up to the task?

IMHO, isn't the Toyota and Honda engines on par in terms of development time? The Toyota has had 2 years of unofficial development while the Honda is also on it's 2nd year of development, albeit officially. But then, Honda had unofficially helped Mugen?

[neilap]

No. Honda's motor is a newly designed 90 degree v10 that was only tested in January when the testing ban was lifted. Needless to say it could not run as it was designed and they had to run it safer just so the teams could run races. Honda dropped the ball! Toyota Developed their motor 2 years ago, tested it all year last year and now this year they are racing it.

[Valve Bounce]

Neilap, I think that to really succeed, Honda must virtually take over the full control of the team, letting Dave Richards manage the racing side. All development decisions must be made by the one organisation. Eddie would never have that because, to be fair, Jordan is his racing team. He is not in F1 just to see his name in lights - he is in charge of Team Jordan.
So there you have the reason why Honda must go with BAR, and spend all their time and efforts developing the total package: engine, chassis, all other running parts, and the all controlling blackbox, not just an engine that fits onto two different chassis.
I have always said it was a pity that Honda didn't buy out Prost completely, spend one year in the wilderness while developing their own Team Honda car (Neilap, you can now ) . Racing the a new Honda engine with the AP3 as a test bed might not have been that bad an idea - Renault did it last year with the old Benneton chassis. Any blowups would not be that bad, as that would be merely track testing under quals and racing conditions.
Gee!! I come up with some geat ideas sometimes :confused:

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[Mr V]

Are the Hondas in each teams identical? could this be compromising their efforts as far as design goes, or are the two teams chassis's identical? (unlikely). The Toyota engine has been designed with one chassis in mind, where as the Honda engine (if identical) has to sit in two different chassis designs.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, obviously the suspension components are different, I'm not sure about the gear box and diff, so the blackbox software must be different (remembr the two Jordans sitting on the startline after everybody else had gone?)

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[El_Gibleto]

The Cosworth group was split into 2 divisions a few years ago.

"Cosworth Racing" the motorsport side of the organisation is owned by Ford. VAG (Volkswagen) own "Cosworth Engineering which is the "road car" part, I believe that there are clauses in the seperation contract that limit each part to it's specific areas of specialisation for several years. I will check with the ex-chairman of the group at the weekend.

[Stephen Green]

I am intrigued to know why many of you feel that Honda have to own the whole team for it to be a success? Mercedes don't won McLaren, BMW don't own Williams and they seem to do pretty well to me! Honda never owned McLaren or Williams before when they supplied engines that won countless world championships.

Nuff sed.

[Valve Bounce]

Dear Nuff Sed,
Mercedes and BMW were not dealing with BAR, which is not in anybody's language a well organised nor proven successful F1 team. If you go through this forum, you will find many threads and posts decrying the organisational capabilities of BAR, but I have yet to remember a single thread extolling their virtues. I can visualise both the above top teams working in close relationship with their engine supplier; BAR have yet to score a single point this year, halfway through the season despite a massive budget. Maybe you could enlighten us as to why they are underperforming.

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[Glen]

Stephen

Not own the team, sure - but the kind of relationship that Mclaren and Mercedes, and Williams and BMW, have got just can't be had with two teams getting the engines. The integration of chassis and engine is so crucial that all of the data relating to that area must surely be sensitive and confidential. The current situation is only sustainable if both teams are happy mid-pack (back-pack in BAR's current case!).

The option to aquire the team is also very important from a business perspective - one contingency plan for the future might involve buying the team out to get through a crisis or somesuch. If Eddie Jordan, for example, is unwilling to countenance such a contingency then his team would look less attractive than one which is more open to all options.

[Rambo]

Jordan never came close to winning the championship, but they've always been a good team. Problem is they've gone backwards lately (after receiving the works engines, in fact!) and Eddie's sudden cutting of 1/3rd or the workforce didn't exactly inspire confidence.

Honda won't get any results with BAR - that team has always been a waste of two gridspots.

[Super Tourer]

[i]

Honda won't get any results with BAR - that team has always been a waste of two gridspots. [/B]

We need to have a clear distinction between the 'chrome toilet seat and flash cash' BAR of the past and the 'new improved Prodrive' version that it will be next year.

BAR will effectively become Prodrive, which gives them two lots of facilities and engineering know how. Don't forget Jordan fired people because he couldn't afford to pay them, BAR was always regarded as over-staffed and rash with its cash. In anycase BAR now have all Prodrive's staff to call upon as their factory is literally down the road from BAR.

Jordan can't even start to rival these facilities, and has nothing like the championship and race winning history that Prodrive has enjoyed in various categories.

I don't think Honda needs to own BAR, just commit and focus on them. The F1 game has been raised since Honda's last F1 experience and I believe they totally understimated what is required. Since F1 engines have got smaller and lighter, they've become much more of an integral part of the car's overall design as opposed to the space at the back where it bolt's on.

Back in the 1982 season Brabham were alternating between a BMW Turbo and Cosworth DFV engine in the same car - can you imagine that happening now.

To put this into current perspective - Sauber's engine deal with Ferrari comes complete with the rear end of the car, gearbox and electronics - which probably comprises about 50% of the car - so in effect a 2002 Sauber is almost 50% of the 2001 Ferrari, which explain's their pace.

[Stephen Green]

VB I wasn't sticking up for BAR and agree with you ref the threads and underperforming. I was merely making the point that in other cases the engine manufacturer did not need to own the team to have success in F1.

I happen to believe that Jordan will once again become a winning team, more so since it has become leaner and meaner. On the other hand I do not dismiss Dave Richards abilities and, as others have said, Prodrive's abilities in other formulae have a proven track record. But then so does Eddie Jordan if you cast you minds back to the days of F3 etc.

I don't think there is any one simple answer to Honda's problem, but I am still not convinced that owning the whole shooting match is the answer to their problems.

To me the most interesting thing to watch will be how well or not BAR do next year under the watchful eye of Dave Richards.

Just as an afterthought, if the Honda engine is so new in it's design, then is there not a significant advantage to be gained from technical feedback from two rather than one team for a further year?

Ok, that's enough for now, my poor old brain cells are staging a revolt from overuse and I feel a little snooze coming on!

[Valve Bounce]

I think Glen is saying what I wanted to say : the integration of engine and chassis. It is imperative to do this right with the controls coming from the black box, and this entails a huge amount of testing these days.
I supppose with better coorporation between team manager and engine supplier, BAR might improve - but I think sole ownership like Toyota or Renault would solve problems and find solutions more efficiently.

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[Rambo]

Well, OK - it's worked for Ferrari, and that merc for McLaren is basically in House. Renault are looking good, too. But it hasn't worked for Jaguar. Toyota - well, 1st year, give them time. BMW and Williams have a great team - of course, Williams built that prototype for them, so you can see a sort of McLaren-Mercedes partnership appearing.

I don't see why Honda suddenly feel they need to own the team. At least this way, they can blame other people for the car not winning!