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30 May 2003, 11:29 (Ref:614633) | #26 | |
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Alesi in 90 and Modena in 91.
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30 May 2003, 11:51 (Ref:614641) | #27 | ||
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piquetfan, I am too young to remember or even ahave seen many of the races you speak of.
Mansell had already passed senna on track in the same race, so there was a chance, difficult, but he'd done it once .....could he do it again. Do not be sorry for me, if I want pity I will ask for it. |
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"Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticise them you're a mile away and you have their shoes." |
30 May 2003, 12:00 (Ref:614646) | #28 | |
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DOn't feel bad! I am sorry. I just wanted to say that those races are available on video. Sorry if I sounded too harsh. I am feeling sorry for myself
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30 May 2003, 12:07 (Ref:614649) | #29 | ||
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I am sure I'll get over it, I'll keep an eye out for those races, some flaky satellite channell is bound to show them sooner or later.
Why are yer feeling sorry for yerself, have you lost yer wheels? |
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"Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticise them you're a mile away and you have their shoes." |
30 May 2003, 12:28 (Ref:614678) | #30 | ||
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Sorry, but I don't bow to Senna's drive in 1992, if anything Mansells was better. Senna had the advantage of being in front, Mansell never gave up the attack after a problem that could have easily put him out of the race.
New tyres or not, it's basically impossible to pass at Monaco. Senna spent so much time sliding during those last few laps that it was impossible even for Nigel Mansell to get through! |
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Sunderland Til I Die! |
30 May 2003, 12:59 (Ref:614711) | #31 | ||
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Thank God for krt917, otherwise most of the best ones wouldn't have been mentioned!
As well as a lot of those mentioned, Stewart in 1971, he only had rear brakes for the entire race. Last edited by Adam43; 30 May 2003 at 13:04. |
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Brum brum |
30 May 2003, 13:02 (Ref:614712) | #32 | |||
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Both drover extremely well. I was, however, surprised that Senna was close enough to get teh lead even with an extra stop by Mansell. Such was the dominance of Nige and Williams. |
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Brum brum |
30 May 2003, 13:21 (Ref:614732) | #33 | ||
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The best car doesn't neccessarily win. The best CHASSIS has an advantage, for sure, althoguht the engine power is irrelevant (drivability certainly isn't). But, the best driver in the second-best car usually beats the second-best driver in the best car. Look at Schuamcher winning in the 1997 Ferrari, or Senna in the 87 Lotus or 93 Williams.
DC's win last year wasn't great, but the 2000 one was lucky. If Schumacher hadn't've broken down, Mikey had it in the bag. Trulli could've held off DC but for that gearbox as well. Best drive ever? Gilles Villeneuve probably, although he was lucky that Jones broke down near the end (just after Murray Walker praised the 'legendary reliability of the Williams'!). Schumacher in 1997 comes close, but that spin takes it away from him. 1993 was Senna's best effort. Best drive that didn't win has to be Mansell in 1992, he was so unlucky to end his career without a Monaco win. Last edited by BootsOntheSide; 30 May 2003 at 13:22. |
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30 May 2003, 13:46 (Ref:614755) | #34 | |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
The best car doesn't neccessarily win. The best CHASSIS has an advantage, for sure, althoguht the engine power is irrelevant (drivability certainly isn't). But, the best driver in the second-best car usually beats the second-best driver in the best car. Look at Schuamcher winning in the 1997 Ferrari, or Senna in the 87 Lotus or 93 Williams. McLaren in the 80s and then Williams and then McLaren with Mika again were the best cars and quite dominant at Monte Carlo. As I said, you need something special like rain or lots of retirements to have a surprise in Monaco. In 1997, Schumacher made the difference being much faster than the others because of the rain, but in 1993 Prost had pole and was going to win, then he had problems with the pitstop and finished one lap down. Best drive ever? Gilles Villeneuve probably, although he was lucky that Jones broke down near the end (just after Murray Walker praised the 'legendary reliability of the Williams'!). He was also lucky that Piquet (who had pole position and was leading confortably) was hit by a backmarker and retired (it wasn't Salazar this time though). 1993 was Senna's best effort Far from this, with Prost having problems (he lost almost one minute in two pitstops), and Schumacher blowing the engine while in the lead. Best drive that didn't win has to be Mansell in 1992, he was so unlucky to end his career without a Monaco win. No way. Senna/Bellof 1984 were much better. Mansell had a great car and was just unlucky that he had a puncture, otherwise it would have been a predictable win by the best car. Last edited by piquetfan; 30 May 2003 at 13:47. |
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30 May 2003, 14:24 (Ref:614792) | #35 | ||
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Hmmm...
1961 - MOSS takes the win in a much slower car then the Ferrari's 1970 - RINDT overtakes Brabham at the last corner to take the win 1984 - BELLOF and SENNA chasing down Prost in the rain 1992 - MANSELL pushes Senna hard all the way 1996 - Calculated drive nets PANIS the win in tricky conditions 1997 - SCHUMACHER in a league of his own 2001 - BERNOLDI doesn't crack under pressure 2002 - Controlled drive from COULTHARD to beat the faster Ferrari I'll think of more after posting this I am sure. |
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30 May 2003, 14:44 (Ref:614814) | #36 | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by piquetfan
Quote:
In '92, Senna absolutely destroyed his rear tires holding off Mansell for the win, he was driving the car well beyond it's limits. This in a year when Mansell and his FW14B-Renault was absolutely untouchable on most weekends. If it had been any driver on that track but Senna in front of him, he'd have gone past and taken the win. Yes, top get his victory, Gilles needed Piquet to screw up. But the sheer pace at which he drove that miserable truck of a Ferrari, which shouldn't even have finished on the same lap as the leaders, is the stuff of legends. He got absolutely as close to every barrier around that track as he could without throwing the whole race away. Likewise, you can't call it a brilliant drive if you've got the very best car in dry conditions... So M$ or Rubens winning in the F2003 won't be an impressive drive, because it's expected. _Maybe_ if Schumi laps the whole field, but, short of that, there's not much to applaud! |
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30 May 2003, 15:16 (Ref:614841) | #37 | |
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Hi LJ,
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lee Janotta What you need to have an impressive drive is a racer doing something with a car that otherwise wouldn't happen! I would say that in Monza or Spa you can do it, but Monaco does not favour it. In '92, Senna absolutely destroyed his rear tires holding off Mansell for the win, he was driving the car well beyond it's limits. This in a year when Mansell and his FW14B-Renault was absolutely untouchable on most weekends. If it had been any driver on that track but Senna in front of him, he'd have gone past and taken the win. Well, he had to destroy his tyres as much as Bernoldi had to destroy his to keep DC behind him. The difference between McLAren/Williams in 1992 and Arrows/McLaren in 2001 was more or less the same (well above one second per lap), and in both cases there was no overtake. ANd I don't think that Bernoldi's drive was exceptional. I want to be consistnt, which is why I don't think Senna's drive in 1992 was impressive - I would rather go with his performance in 1984 - that was something that the driver and not the car made happen. Yes, top get his victory, Gilles needed Piquet to screw up. But the sheer pace at which he drove that miserable truck of a Ferrari, which shouldn't even have finished on the same lap as the leaders, is the stuff of legends. He got absolutely as close to every barrier around that track as he could without throwing the whole race away. I don't think the Ferrri was a truck - it certainly shouldn't be lapped, but cretainly it wasn't the best car. THat was a great drive by Gilles. Likewise, you can't call it a brilliant drive if you've got the very best car in dry conditions... So M$ or Rubens winning in the F2003 won't be an impressive drive, because it's expected. _Maybe_ if Schumi laps the whole field, but, short of that, there's not much to applaud! That applies to most of Prost and Senna's wins - actually, to most of McLaren and Williams'wins in the last 20 years. As I said, without rain or a many retirements, Monaco is very predictable. Last edited by piquetfan; 30 May 2003 at 15:17. |
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30 May 2003, 15:24 (Ref:614847) | #38 | ||
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Fangio in Monaco 1950 and 1957. In both races he prevented avoid crashed cars and won with dominance.
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30 May 2003, 15:42 (Ref:614876) | #39 | ||
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Well, a lot of people did refer to the 126C as a truck at the time, and the turbo engine had such turbo lag that it acted more like an evil on-off switch. He managed to put teammate Pironi *spits* a lap down in the same car!
Indeed, Senna had the best car a lot of the time. It's what he did '84-'87 and in '92 and '93, when his performance was handicapped, that was really brilliant. As far as Senna vs. Bernouldi... When a washout spends his day holding back one of the leaders, it's just being stupid, as Ralf proved at Spain, just trying to ruin other people's days. Senna managed to hold off Mansell for the _win_, and that's skill. Plus, let's be honest, Mansell was a _much_ more aggressive overtaker than Coultard, who some feel is conservative to a fault. |
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30 May 2003, 15:51 (Ref:614888) | #40 | |
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Hey!
Bernoldi and DC were racing FOR POSITION! DC had a problem in the early stages of the race, Bernoldi did exactly what Senna did - he drove defensively and held DC back. I am saying that it is easy to do it in Monaco. Try to be defensive at Spa or Monza! |
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30 May 2003, 16:42 (Ref:614965) | #41 | ||
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Don't forget Alboreto in 1985
He led and then went don't an escape road on a patch of oil, then he retook the lead from Prost then he had a puncture and fought back to a close second place. |
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30 May 2003, 18:17 (Ref:615064) | #42 | |||
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krt917, thanks for the Beltioise mention. The 1972 race was the perfect confluence of car, conditions and the best drive of a racing career. |
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30 May 2003, 18:23 (Ref:615070) | #43 | |
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Don't blame Bernoldi. He was getting paid to be in the best position (not to be polite), and being ahead of a McLaren was a great thing for Arrows.
Blame Monaco, where even a far-from-briliant defensive drive is enough to hold back a much faster car. |
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30 May 2003, 18:44 (Ref:615093) | #44 | ||
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Not quite. Bernoldi was compromizing his racespeed in order to keep DC well behind teammate Verstappen. In other words, Bernoldi's race was sacrificed in order to keep DC behind. There was really no point for Bernoldi to do what he did. He would've noted faster laptimes if he'd just let DC go. He never stood at chance anyway because of the pitstops. Senna was gunning for the win while he tried keeping Mansell at bay. So Senna had all the points in the world to do what he did. So yes, keeping someone behind for the sake of keeping them behind, is really not that difficult at Monaco. So I don't understand what all the fuss is about when people are applauding DC's victory in 2002. Ordinary drive in my book. Good for keeping it out of the barriers, but so do all the finishers. |
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30 May 2003, 19:38 (Ref:615153) | #45 | ||
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The Bernoldi-Coulthard 'dice' was fair game in my book. If McLaren didn't have problems at the start then they wouldn't have been in that position in the first place. As for Bernoldi, he did what he was paying to do - race. did Coulthard throw the nose in even once?, nah. You reckon Michael Schumacher would have spent that long behind him - neither do I.
As for Mr. Dennis - well, that speaks for itself. |
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30 May 2003, 20:12 (Ref:615190) | #46 | ||
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Panis in 96, one for the underdogs.
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30 May 2003, 21:44 (Ref:615269) | #47 | ||
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30 May 2003, 21:52 (Ref:615277) | #48 | |
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In '92, Senna absolutely destroyed his rear tires holding off Mansell for the win, he was driving the car well beyond it's limits. This in a year when Mansell and his FW14B-Renault was absolutely untouchable on most weekends. If it had been any driver on that track but Senna in front of him, he'd have gone past and taken the win.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, Michael Schumacher wasn't able to get past David Coulthard in 2002, and that was pretty similar to Senna and Mansell in 1992. The way I see it is - same situation, different drivers. |
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30 May 2003, 21:55 (Ref:615281) | #49 | ||
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31 May 2003, 01:00 (Ref:615407) | #50 | ||
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