Cadillac GT car progress !!!!

[Wally (Evo.1)]

Originally posted by kmchow
But would there be some maximum price ceilings on the cars sold to privateers? A private team is unlikely to be able to afford factory built cars.

Most manufacturers wouldn't want to be in a position where a private team may be outracing their factory counterparts.

Price caps are a great idea, and one that I proposed on another board as a way to get more GTS cars racing. However, that idea was "shouted down," so to speak. I think people confuse price caps with "low tech racing," like the IRL, for example. (Not a knock against the IRL, but they did mandate price caps as soon as they had their own formula.)

If the price caps are set at a reasonable level, so that the cars are affordable for privateers, and the factories make a little money from those sales, there need not be restrictions on the technology/purposeness of the cars.

Does anyone have an idea of how much a factory-built SWC GT car would go for?

As for factories vs. privateers, you're right. The manufacturers wouldn't want to see their factory teams being outraced by privateers. However, the chances of that happening are remote, but that would certainly make the playing field far more level than it is now. And a win for a manufacturer is still a win, whether it is the factory or a private team.

[pitviper]

exactly, wally. good recognition of the situation. the key is to have the rules open to as many makes and budgets as possible, while allowing for the engineers and crew to make those "personal" adjustments to gain their own elusive "unfair advantage"...

and by the way, i'm in central FL too, were you at sebring?

pit

[Wally (Evo.1)]

Another thing about factories vs. privateers in SWC GT is that, with the weight penalties given to top cars, it will open the door for more private teams to be competitive. Just think: two fairly identical cars, one (factory) is much heavier with success ballast, while the privateer car stays the same weight.

If Kurt is correct and we have four or five factory teams next year, having identical privateer cars would mean perhaps 12-15 really competitive cars, plus the 3R guys and the Vipers. Now THAT I would love to see.

Pit: Thank you, sir. I was at Sebring and I think I saw you at Ken May's party. You were one of the Carsport America guys there, right? We're going to have to have a Vette vs. Viper GT3 battle on the PS2.

[Fogelhund]

Originally posted by Kurt Maxwell


WC has to be the best road racing in N.America - maybe ever. It looks to get even better in 2004.

KM

PS-The new Vipers rock.

It's pretty good, I'll give you that, certainly the best right now, though best ever could start some arguments.

PS - Is that a hint? Oreca and 350Z?

[pitviper]

Wally- more good points. and yes, it was me who you saw at the get together. i thought that i had met you. we will definetely have to get together to battle it out over many a circuit! lol...

Fogel- as far as the Viper hint, don't think ORECA...not that scale...not yet.

pit

[kmchow]

I can't imagine privateers buying same year/spec cars as the factory teams. At best, they would be a year behind. But looking at Audi for example, no privateer has stepped up to race the old S4s. I'm not sure if it's b/c no privateer has stepped up or no privateer could afford even year or two old factory cars.

[Wally (Evo.1)]

Originally posted by kmchow
I can't imagine privateers buying same year/spec cars as the factory teams. At best, they would be a year behind. But looking at Audi for example, no privateer has stepped up to race the old S4s. I'm not sure if it's b/c no privateer has stepped up or no privateer could afford even year or two old factory cars.

That's assuming that Champion or Audi even offered the cars for sale to private teams.

I think if the rules stated that, in order for factory teams to race, privateers had to have comparable cars, the manufacturers would make the effort to build enough examples and offer them for sale.

On racer.com, they have a Speed GT Corvette Z06 for sale at $65k. I wonder what a top-of-the-line Speed GT car might go for. Any idea?

[kmchow]

Originally posted by Wally (Evo.1)
That's assuming that Champion or Audi even offered the cars for sale to private teams.

The S4s are for sale on their website. I'm not sure if theire S6s will be offered for sale as well.

On racer.com, they have a Speed GT Corvette Z06 for sale at $65k. I wonder what a top-of-the-line Speed GT car might go for. Any idea?

I think the used S4s are being offered for over 100K-150K US OTOH, I've heard the Turner Motosport/Realtime RSXs/Integs are worth over 100K as well! And they're just in the WCTC!

[Wally (Evo.1)]

Originally posted by kmchow
The S4s are for sale on their website. I'm not sure if theire S6s will be offered for sale as well.

Thanks. I did not know that. It would be nice to see a private team take at least one car and run it. Any idea how it might fare against the competition this year?

Another car I'd love to see again is the RealTime Acura NSX.

Originally posted by kmchow
I think the used S4s are being offered for over 100K-150K US OTOH, I've heard the Turner Motosport/Realtime RSXs/Integs are worth over 100K as well! And they're just in the WCTC!

Over 100K for a Touring Car?!?! Wow. Somehow I don't think the SCCA had that in mind for production-based racing, spending 100K on a racing version of a 20K street car.

Thanks for the info.

Does anyone else see the parallels between what's going on now in Speed WC and the FIA GT1? Factory teams coming in (Audi, BMW, Cadillac, etc.) with cars that they either do not sell to privateers or do sell at incredibly high prices. We've seen the trains of PTG BMWs and Champion Audis with the 3R 'Vette and Porsche barely hanging on. I just hope we don't see the mass exodus of small private teams that spelled the end of GT1. (Or maybe I'm just being an alarmist and need to chill out...)

[danhx]

Originally posted by Kurt Maxwell
I should have said NOT shock me to see the Corvette GTS program go away.

If they have to build a run of 25 GTS cars in '05 it certainly could make them think about having the C-6 Corvette compete in GT instead.

Err....Too late for that. The C6-R has been in developement for a few months now; a friend of mine who worked at the Chevy Grand Prix of Atlanta was talking to some of the corvette drivers who've tested it. They say its better and different, but they wouldn't be specific.

Don't forget that Corvette Racing said that they would be in the ALMS at least through the 2005 season, so i really don't see them going anywhere soon.

[billnchristy]

Yeah at Lime Rock this year talking to one of the SCCA flagmen, the going price for a decent TC was around 65k and 150k or so for a GT car. These cars are no joke racecars with little or no factory parts leftover...that is for the big money teams...from what i saw in the paddock, if it was headlight stickers its a big money car...

As for not liking 4door audis as GTs, If it was a Yugo whipping up on Porsches, M3s, and Vettes I would watch it!!

As for the C6 and C5R debate, if they built a C5 with a R model body kit, some fancy carbon fibre dash and the 28k C5R motor (which is for sale) you could pull out a "supervette" for probably around 100k...right on par with the Viper and less than the GT40...that would be within the spirit of the rules would it not?

[kmchow]

Originally posted by Wally (Evo.1)
Over 100K for a Touring Car?!?! Wow. Somehow I don't think the SCCA had that in mind for production-based racing, spending 100K on a racing version of a 20K street car.

100K US does buy you a car developed by the top teams. However, I also have heard of the Mazda Proteges being available for 75K US. And those cars have shown that they can be race winners! But don't forget Roger Foo, who supposedly built a race or at least podium winning car for 10K US! Of course, he also had a lot of donated parts/labour.

Does anyone else see the parallels between what's going on now in Speed WC and the FIA GT1? Factory teams coming in (Audi, BMW, Cadillac, etc.) with cars that they either do not sell to privateers or do sell at incredibly high prices.

Therein lies the problem, it's a love/hate relationship!! You love the factory teams for the attention they bring to the series, but also hate them for taking up all the results/increasing costs! The only hope is that more big $$$ sponsors will come in to support the privateers who can then buy ex-factory cars and level the playing field.

WC officials believe the rewards weighting system will keep the factory cars in check.

An exciting piece of news is that Coors Beer will sponsor all 3 3R Racing cars for the remaining 3 races of the season!! Hopefully, Coors will stay on for '04 and their participation will encourage Coke Cola and other sponsors to back the WC!!!

[Wally (Evo.1)]

Originally posted by kmchow
Therein lies the problem, it's a love/hate relationship!! You love the factory teams for the attention they bring to the series, but also hate them for taking up all the results/increasing costs! The only hope is that more big $$$ sponsors will come in to support the privateers who can then buy ex-factory cars and level the playing field.

WC officials believe the rewards weighting system will keep the factory cars in check.

An exciting piece of news is that Coors Beer will sponsor all 3 3R Racing cars for the remaining 3 races of the season!! Hopefully, Coors will stay on for '04 and their participation will encourage Coke Cola and other sponsors to back the WC!!!

With corporate backing for privateer teams, it's kind of the "chicken or egg" thing. They have to show they can get results before they get the money, but they have to have money to get the results, especially against the might of factory-backed teams like BMW and Audi. I agree with you. I do hope the SCCA or the teams can convince more non-racing related corporations (Coors, Coca Cola, etc.) to support the series.

[kmchow]

Does anyone have pics of the WCGT CTS?

[Laguna]

Hey guys, I've never posted here, but read from time to time.

Saw the part about requiring factories to have cars in privateer hands and realized that I have at times posted this as an idea to get more cars on grids. I believe it would not require cost controls - here's why:

The rules would actually say that the factory team would only be eligible to race if equal cars had been sold to non-factory teams. This can control costs without actually saying so because by having to have sold cars to non-factory teams, the costs had to be low enough for those teams to have afforded them - make sense? In other words, Caddy could race 2 factory cars if they had sold at least 2 to privateers. The privateers had to be able to afford them, so the price had to be low enough. . .

The extra cars helps the Mfr. recoup some of the fixed costs of designing and building their cars.

As to the privateer beating the factory - this used to be a lot less of an issue than it is now. I'm not sure why.

I'd think it'd be up to the Mfr. to work that out - maybe sell the cars to the privateer, but as part of the agreement, have the team known as the XXXXX Cadillac Team (or McCann Viper Team, Champion Audi Team, etc). Put the car name in as part of the team name so that ties back to the Mfr. would be evident if they win.

I think this could be viable not just in Speed series, but ALMS as well. It builds in some cost control without having to restrict things by rules - which leads to exploitation of loopholes, etc.

[Wally (Evo.1)]

Originally posted by Laguna
Saw the part about requiring factories to have cars in privateer hands and realized that I have at times posted this as an idea to get more cars on grids. I believe it would not require cost controls - here's why:

The rules would actually say that the factory team would only be eligible to race if equal cars had been sold to non-factory teams. This can control costs without actually saying so because by having to have sold cars to non-factory teams, the costs had to be low enough for those teams to have afforded them - make sense? In other words, Caddy could race 2 factory cars if they had sold at least 2 to privateers. The privateers had to be able to afford them, so the price had to be low enough. . .

The extra cars helps the Mfr. recoup some of the fixed costs of designing and building their cars.

I'd think it'd be up to the Mfr. to work that out - maybe sell the cars to the privateer, but as part of the agreement, have the team known as the XXXXX Cadillac Team (or McCann Viper Team, Champion Audi Team, etc). Put the car name in as part of the team name so that ties back to the Mfr. would be evident if they win.

I think this could be viable not just in Speed series, but ALMS as well. It builds in some cost control without having to restrict things by rules - which leads to exploitation of loopholes, etc.

I think this is a great idea. It has all the requirements for a successful series: factory cars, competitive privateer teams, affordable machines that are at (or close to) the specs run by the factory teams, and a larger and more competitive grid. What more could one ask for?

Perhaps I'm dead wrong here, but this might also change the balance of power from the manufacturers to the teams. Instead of private teams begging to purchase competitive cars from manufacturers, the manufacturers would have the power to determine which car they want to use, which car is going to give them the most "bang for their buck."

The only flaw I can see is a manufacturer setting up a satellite team, just to satisfy the rule, without bothering to sell cars to true private teams. The satellite teams would essentially be a factory team, but without the factory name. Or, like Audi did with Champion, they might sell the cars, but tell the private team what they can and cannot do with their own car.

[Wally (Evo.1)]

Originally posted by Wally (Evo.1)
Instead of private teams begging to purchase competitive cars from manufacturers, the manufacturers would have the power to determine which car they want to use, which car is going to give them the most "bang for their buck."

What I meant to say is that the private teams will have the power to determine which car they want to use. The manufacturers would have to make the sales pitch to the teams for the teams to use their cars.

[kmchow]

Originally posted by Laguna
The rules would actually say that the factory team would only be eligible to race if equal cars had been sold to non-factory teams.

Wow, a very fresh idea I say. However, as someone said, the factory could then set up a satellite, closet factory or junior team? And what we don't want are those things. Alternatively, a privateer team could inevitably still be controlled in part by a factory. Cause all the better funded private teams could have snapped up the factory cars. As well, the very idea the cars are supplied by the factory, means factories will have an influence on the private team.

I'd think it'd be up to the Mfr. to work that out - maybe sell the cars to the privateer, but as part of the agreement, have the team known as the XXXXX Cadillac Team (or McCann Viper Team, Champion Audi Team, etc).

Another interesting and fresh idea!

[Mal]

Great idea but difficult to excecute. However it may not be such a bad thing if the factory set up satellite teams at least then there would be 4 cars and not two. It would work as long as there is more than one factory involved.

That is the essence of the problem that VAG has been the only series manufacturer in the last few years. If another manufacturer such as porsche or BMW had been racing at the same time we would have had great times and everyone would be happy.

[LouisTheShark]

"I think this is a great idea. It has all the requirements for a successful series: factory cars, competitive privateer teams, affordable machines that are at (or close to) the specs run by the factory teams, and a larger and more competitive grid. What more could one ask for?"

A version of this idea was part of the SRP rules in Grand Am. Why is this today's brilliant idea for increasing grids, when 3 years ago it was thought of as anti-factory? Also, this concept did not work for Grand Am, so why do you expect it to work in IMSA?

[Kurt Maxwell]

Five years ago I mentioned this concept to the then Executive Director of the ALMS at a brief meeting at his office.

As his eyes glazed over at that suggestion he then told me that the plan was to "do a CART" and get all the manufacturers who were then running at LM to bring those factory teams to the ALMS.

With Audi,BMW,Porsche,Mercedes,Nissan and Toyota all participating in the LM 24 -and Cadillac and Chrysler in the wings- the "build it and they will come" era began.

Who needed privateers who had to find really large sponsorship dollars to run a Lola or R&S? If some rich guys showed up to fill the field that was just gravy.

Anyway, these same manufacturers would not only flock to the ALMS,ELMS and PALMS, but they would buy the TV time by running tie in ads on the broadcasts.

I knew right then that what we see know would happen. Only Panozbucks have kept it going this long.

Ratel gets it and the G/A gets it.

Mitch Wright of the SCCA gets it too. He has made WCGT what it is and I am confident in his abilities to continue to make the right moves.

[Kurt Maxwell]

"what we see NOW would happen"

Damm that 10 minute thing!

[Laguna]

I'd thought of the whole factory satellite team problem and this could be difficult to control. Like someone said, satellite teams wouldn't be so bad as long as the factory wasn't allowed to be iron fisted with them (Champion Audi). Not sure how that could be controlled, but it seems possible.

As for SRP2 in GARRA - I don't think there were ever any factory teams interested in running SRP2 in GARRA, so for lack of interest it didn't fly. This idea would have to start in an arena in which the factories want to compete - LeMans and maybe several BIG events in Europe, U.S., and Asia. Maybe the World Series type events would be attended by mostly the factory teams (with a few satellites or privateers), but the continental series could be mostly privateers with some factories. . .?????

[kmchow]

Originally posted by Laguna
I'd thought of the whole factory satellite team problem and this could be difficult to control. Like someone said, satellite teams wouldn't be so bad as long as the factory wasn't allowed to be iron fisted with them (Champion Audi). Not sure how that could be controlled, but it seems possible.

But the very fact a factory team can choose who they sell their cars to can allow them to indirectly control how the private runs the cars--who will drive, how are the cars developed/run and potentially who the sponsor could be. If a privateer suddenly stops to cooperate with the factory, the factory would just refrain from selling their further cars to the privateer in the future? A closet factory or satellite team would then just increase the costs of racing for manufacturers. Unless genuine privateers/sponsors could be brought into race these veh, the problem of encouraging or maximizing grids will never be realized.

[Wally (Evo.1)]

I'm having a "franks and beans" moment (for anyone who's seen "Something About Mary"), but how is the FIA GT dealing with factory cars? Something about manufacturers providing cars for so many teams, but I don't remember the numbers.

One idea to prevent the manufacturers setting up "satellite" teams to get around the privateer team rule is to require them to sell cars to two other private teams. I can see them setting up one "satellite" team, but not two. What do you think?