Judd - Page 2

Tim Northcutt · 2 Dec 2003, 15:14 (Ref:801551)

It's the 3.5 L Cosworth Turbo...in the original announcement of the Team Nasamax effort, in its own informational materials, the team even referred to the engine as being the Cosworth engine that is used in CART racing...

To Dani Filth:

I think that there are various options out there...I just dont think that many people are willing to "look outside of the box".....plus, there would be certain developmental costs and growing pains associated with developing a new engine option as it is adapted to sportscar racing....

Teams may not want to take that approach with the $$$ they have to race with and sponsors may not have the patience to stick with a developmental effort...so they go with the safer and proven commodity...

But like I said, running a Judd may only ensure that you're going to be the "Best Non-VAG"....I'm just trying to encourage others to look at other options and be open-minded...because alternatives ARE out there...cost-effective ones...

I think that by going to an established builder like Ed Pink (who has built cosworths for CART in the 1980s, 962 Porche engines for sportscar racing, and now builds sprint car engines for J.J Yeley) could easily adapt a sprint car engine to sportscars with great success....

BTW...a Sprint Car package costs about $80,000...the whole package...tell me that the engines, as part of that package, arent cheaper than a Judd lease...

One other note:

I also feel that the Panoz Elan engine is "on-par" with the Judd GV4...after all, Panoz has beaten the Audis twice in 2002 (granted, it was on circuits that favored that package and did not favor the Audi -- Sears Point and the DC circuit) and this year, the Panoz was "Best Non-VAG" at both Sebring and Le Mans, and beat two Judds in close action in the final hour of the race last June....

Like the Judd, it took a couple of years to develop the reliability of the engine in the longer races...but I would certainly argue that the Elan is at least equal to the GV4 and on North American circuits, I would think that it's higher torque curve makes it a better engine than the GV4 as an option for the ALMS tams to use...

hartham · 2 Dec 2003, 15:50 (Ref:801576)

cybersdorf

I am sure that if the conversion of a race methanol engine to run on bio-ethanol was simple, then Cosworth, the most successful engine manufacturer in F1 history, would have been able to put their graduate engineers on the task and there would have been no teething problems......

Hardly.... Simple is an understatement, and you do them a great injustice by dumbing down the effort put into the development of that engine.....

The Badger · 2 Dec 2003, 16:15 (Ref:801608)

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
I also feel that the Panoz Elan engine is "on-par" with the Judd GV4...

I agree . Not forgetting that when Matthews Racing had it stuck in the back of their R&S it did pretty good too .

Tim Northcutt · 2 Dec 2003, 16:28 (Ref:801615)

From what I have read over the course of this past year, I think it is more to do with issues concerning tuning the engine for endurance racing as opposed to "sprints" like CART engines run than it is an adaptation of the fuel, but getting that mixture of fuel and air with air restrictors and other factors could be problematic for them...and I'm sure it is not a simple solution....

I recall reading that they had problems at Sebring with their initial appraoch to the power band range of the engine (they made it too narrow), and they also have faced electrical gremlins in the ways that they have had to map the ECUs and the EFI systems for this type of racing as well...

The only fuel-related problem I have read about supposedly had to do with ethanol fuel evaporating somehow...but that is the only fuel-rrealted problem I recall reading...

I jus think they need to race the car and test it more...they ran 3 events all year long...not enough to work out the glitches on a new approach to an engine use, and you can learn only so much on a dyno...

cybersdorf · 2 Dec 2003, 17:53 (Ref:801695)

Quote:

Originally posted by hartham
Hardly.... Simple is an understatement, and you do them a great injustice by dumbing down the effort put into the development of that engine.....

Wow, is that really what I did? Amazing.
Would you agree that converting a methanol-powered engine to run on ethanol is easier than to start with an engine designated for petrol?

cybersdorf · 2 Dec 2003, 17:55 (Ref:801698)

Quote:

Originally posted by The Badger
I agree . Not forgetting that when Matthews Racing had it stuck in the back of their R&S it did pretty good too .

But Matthews then linked up with Yates, why was that?

Tim Northcutt · 2 Dec 2003, 18:06 (Ref:801708)

They linked with Yates because they had a different intake system that the team felt was better than what the Elan uses, and Yates knows how to get horsepower with air-restricted engines....

I think that they also felt that "looking outside of the box" might give them an added edge, as opposed to going the well-traveled routye of others....

If you recall, Yates was originally involved with the Panoz engine project for the GT1's engine back in 1999, and Panoz hired a couple of the Yates engineers from that initial effort to be part of the development of the Elan engine...

Finally, when it comes to that particular Ford engine, you're not going to find a better builder on the planet than Robert Yates Racing...Period...they know it inside and out...

I just wish that it would get some time to be developed more in both testing and racing conditions...the Yates engine had plenty of power at Le Mans this year and they were fast the whole week...bad luck on a blowout made them push too hard to catch up, but they were the fastest "Non-VAG" on the track through the first 9 hours of the race....before matthews wrecked the car and put them back in a hole they couldn't climb out of...

Tim Northcutt · 2 Dec 2003, 18:29 (Ref:801727)

One note back to the Sprint car engines:

To build a top-of-the-line sprint car engine that'll crank up somewhere between 700-800 horsepower costs in the range of $25,000- $35,000 each...that's with an aluminum block, like a World of Outlaws engine...the 410 CID and the 360 CID engines are built off of the same block configurations and designs...the 410s have a longer stroke and are bored out bigger...

Sure...you'd have to de-tune it to race endurance in a sportscar...but these builders are very innovative and someone like Ed Pink, as an example, has a wide range of experience with many types of racing engines...they could get the job done for a race team that wanted to run ALMS, LMES or any Le Mans effort...and Ed pink has been building engines for more than 45 years...long before Methanol became the fuel of choice in US racing (for safety reasons)...he'd know how to convert that engine back to a gasoline-fueled powerplant...

$25,000-$35,000 per engine HAS to be cheaper than a Judd lease....

That's relatively inexpensive power.....

Maybe that's why the Chrysler LMP in 2001 was powered by a derivative of the MOPAR sprint car engine...

BTW...the specs for that engine are on Mulsanne Mike's site...

Are you reading this, Henri?????

I think you can get the power you need for less $$$ than a Judd lease....

Tim Northcutt · 2 Dec 2003, 19:05 (Ref:801772)

Back on Thread:

I really do hope that someone in the LMES will choose to run next year's campaign with the GV5 Judd engine...

I'm very interested in seeing how it performs on European circuits...it seemed competitive on some tracks over here...but didn't get the change to really show what it has as far as full potential is concerned...

Reliability for the GV5 was shown at Sebring in 2003...Doran/Lista did finish the 12 hours, and I believe most of their problems were non-engine related (blow-outs, spins and contact with other cars popping them, etc.)...

But the engine has had about a full year of developmenton the racetrack...that is it...not much compared to others, and look at how the Judd GV4 and the Elan engine have progressed in year two and year three....

Tim Northcutt · 3 Dec 2003, 00:13 (Ref:801980)

One note about Methanol or Ethanol vs. Gasoline...

the two alcohol fuels are safer to handle, and the burn pretty hot and clean to give you good power...but neither has as much density as gasoline, thus a high horspower engine literally gulps its fuel to meet the power needs, or the equivalent power needs that are generated by a gasoline engine...

THeir gas mileage is not nearly as good as a gasoline engine for that reason...many sprint car engines have additional injectors to pop more fuel into the engine to help relieve this problem...

It is also a reason why you will probably see teams that run ethanol like team nasamax will probably be allowed a larger fuel tank or ajdustments to the sizes of their air restrictors compared to gasoline engines...

It is also probably the reason why the Chrysler LMP with that MOPAR sprinter engine in 2001 was converted and tuned to burn gasoline in 2001...

Hazza · 3 Dec 2003, 08:07 (Ref:802304)

Didn't the judds also top the speed traps this year aswell?

archibold · 3 Dec 2003, 12:38 (Ref:802540)

Just out of interest anybody have an idea what a Judd lease engine would cost ? Just for the purposes of this discussion and comparison. Not going to put one on my list to santa this year

Tim Northcutt · 3 Dec 2003, 13:19 (Ref:802573)

We've asked that question, but I don't know if anyone has really found out the answer to that....

I do know that to lease an engine for CART or the IRL (all purpose-built racing engines) are about $100,000-$110,000 each) and I've read that a NASCAR motor could run you anywhere from about $75,000-$85,000, depending on the builder....

I don't know if this thread still is on the index, but the "Intersport 675 to Run a Judd" thread has a link to the Judd website (courtesy of Pirenzo) that may be of assistance to us....

I dont recall seeing their prices posted on their site, but maybe I didn't look in the right place....

If they aren't, maybe they negotiate them within a range, based on a team's needs...or maybe they only want "serious" inquiries to share that info....but I'm just speculating...

I really don't know...

It would be good to have at least a ballpark figure for comparsion, but I doubt that they are as cheap as $40,000 each.....that's about half the cost of a NASCAR motor...

cybersdorf · 3 Dec 2003, 14:17 (Ref:802637)

http://www.engdev.com/

**skycafe** · 3 Dec 2003, 15:47 (Ref:802741)

To let you know, I did send an email to Judd asking about pricing. Mr. Judd responded back that he would release, but under condition that information NOT be used on forums or websites. I did not ask further as I am by no stretch of the imagination or raiding of piggy banks able to be a customer of Judd.

Robert

Tim Northcutt · 3 Dec 2003, 15:53 (Ref:802745)

I can sure understand why...

Guys like me are posting IRL engine lease prices, average costs of NASCAR motors and about what it would take to buy a sprint car engine....

In forums like this one....so that teams, racers, and fans can compare....and possibly make distinctive choices based on "most bang for the buck"....

Personally, I wouldn't release the figures either, unless my figures were LOWER than other options available....

but then again, maybe I wouldn't release them and work with clients on an indivdual needs basis....

hmmmmm.....how about you????

**skycafe** · 3 Dec 2003, 16:34 (Ref:802790)

Whether they offer different pricing for different teams I can not guess.

I do remember someone a while ago saying here that lease was 70K/engine/race, in either dollars or euros, which up until a few days ago were fairly close on exchange rate....not the case now as the dollar is falling fast...

Tim Northcutt · 3 Dec 2003, 18:24 (Ref:802884)

If that is true, then the sprinter engine is much cheaper in both the short run and the long run...

RacingManiac · 3 Dec 2003, 19:47 (Ref:802956)

CART engine only cost 110,000 lease? Is this now that they are using the spec Cosworth that it became this cheap? Because I recall just a few years back the lease per season for engine from Toyota or Honda in CART are in the 7 figures range...

Tim Northcutt · 3 Dec 2003, 19:55 (Ref:802970)

CART blew about $40 million last season to set up an "affordable" engine program for their race teams by cutting this deal with Cosworth to get engines for that price, and in turn, running the lease program for about what it costs to lease an IRL engine...

It is one of the reasons why CART lost about $100 million over the past year and from the way it looks, will probably not survive the week...see the CART forum for all of the news on this...

BTW...that's a per/engine price....

billnchristy · 3 Dec 2003, 20:29 (Ref:803000)

Dude you forget that sprint car engines do just that...sprint.

I dont think a 800hp N/A anything would last 2 3/4hrs let alone 12 or 24.

I might be wrong but those things seem a little stressed for endurance.

billnchristy · 3 Dec 2003, 20:30 (Ref:803001)

But yeah, by the same token why not try it.

You can get a C5R engine built for the street for 25k. I am sure it would do pretty good in the back of an R&S.

Tim Northcutt · 3 Dec 2003, 20:52 (Ref:803022)

If you read above, a "de-tuned" and modified MOPAR sprint car engine in the back of a Dallara finished 4th at Le Mans in 2001.....

Running it straight up from a sprint car configuration certainly would not work...but making the necessary changes in the engine to set it up for endurance racing would make it a good bet with plenty of power at a fairly low cost compared to more costly alternatives...

RacingManiac · 3 Dec 2003, 23:57 (Ref:803191)

But a C5R motor would not be legal for a prototype as the stroked out small block in the C5R displaces 7 liter, 1 liter above the displacement limit for LMP car....

Lister runs a 6 liter version of the 350 Chevy tuned by Callaway, which is the closest thing to a C5R motor....

Vman · 4 Dec 2003, 00:15 (Ref:803205)

Those MOPAR 6.0 V8's that Oreca ran were junk, just like the Caddy motors. There too heavy, too tall, under powered, unreliable, and had poor fuel consumpsion. That's why Oreca switched to Judd's after Chrysler dropped their funding.

In 2000 Oreca ran 2 Reynard/MOPARs and they were well out paced by Johansson's Reynard/Judd and where pretty much even with the ROC Reynard/VW 675 cars. The first car with Dalmas retired on the second lap with engine failure and the other limped home to the finish well down the order.

In 2001 with the new Dallara chassis they were fast, but 2 out of the 3 cars retired with engine failures.

After the switch to Judd engines in 2002 the Dallara's were challengeing the Audi's in quallifying and both of the cars that started the race finished.

If John Caldwell can't build an endurance motor with full funding from Chrysler I don't hold out much hope for anyone else to do any better.

I think that goes to show that the Judd engine is the only viable option for privateer LMP1 teams that want to have a shot at a win.

It's just too mad that BMW doesn't make the 6.0 V12 available to privateers...

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