[FIA GT] Why is FIA sportscars so sad?

[EliseGT1]

Originally posted by FIRE
Will RTL5 cover FIA GT?

Forget FIA SCC, LMES forever!!!

Well, it's not entirely sure but that's what I understood...because SBS will now cover F1, RTL will want some other race coverage. Since FIA GT is the number one race class in europe after F1 (concerning money spent), chances are serious the will cover GT races.

Let's wait and see ! (We hopen van wel he FIRE?)

[EliseGT1]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
So am I. And I, like you, don't like to be told what to like.


Yes I can. It's, like, "end of story", see.
And for all those among us who still haven't noticed, the FIASCC doesn't exist anymore.

Yes indeed: FIA SCC is no more....welcome to LMES !

And Cybersdorf: I don't like to be quoted for the half of my sentence! I said:

You can't say "people who like closed prototypes don't know what they're talking about".

Your reaction on this is: Yes I can.

My reaction is: No you can't. When someone says he likes a prototype with a roof, then that's his opinion. And because it's his opinion, he definitely knows what he's talking about. End of story.

[SALEEN S7R]

I agree Elise, just a shame that a few indaviduals on this board cant respect everyones opinions, unless its the same as theirs that is.

[billnchristy]

Thanks for, um, well some of the responses, the ones that stuck to the question were great. I didnt realize some of the things that were going on over there.

So BGT and FIA GT will continue to run seperate from LMES but the cars will be switchable in and out of each series yes?

Who can afford all that racing? Will most of the teams be "the big guys: the 550s and maybe even Storms from FIA GT with maybe a Rollcentre Mosler and TVR thrown in from BGT making up the LMES GT/GTS fields?

[Cadete]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
As of 2004 and beyond, yes to the letter, only slight differnce is that British GT has a cup class where as the LMES and FIA GT series dont. But the technical and sporting regulations are the same for GT/NGT in both LMES, FIA GT and British GT.

are you sure, Saleen?

FIA and ACO have agreed on protos rules, but not on GT rules, as far as I know, that is the next step. At least that's what I've understood from AutoHebdo (only magazine I buy that covers sportscars and GTs, the portuguese ones don't give a damn about it). In the small news about the new competition version of the 360 Modena they even say that the car will be available in ACO or FIA standarts, same for the new 996....

[SALEEN S7R]

I think what I have said is correct - not 100% certain though. When Ratel took over control of the British GT series late last year he said that the class names will change to GT/NGT like FIA GT - and the additional cup class, he also said the British series will adopt the same rules as the FIA GT/LMES both in technical and sporting regulations, like the FFSA (French GT Series) has. The GTO class in British GT 2003 (NGT FIA equivallant) ran to the same rules as NGT class of FIA GT. The rules for GT cars have always been the same as FIA GT - ie 2001 when British GT had the GT class with Saleen's and Lister's running.

Anyway im 99% certain that the BGT series will run the same technical regulations as FIA GT and LMES, mainly because Ratel has control over most of the series in Europe and he sees the National GT series as a feeder series to LMES and FIA GT.

[Cadete]

I don't know about the British GT, but regarding the LMES, they use the GTS/GT rules, not the GT/NGT. i remember even some journalists hoping that this is resolved quickly, as FIA GT teams that want to race in Le Mans have to adapt their cars to ACO standart

But I agree with the second part of your post, the rules will eventually be the same, there are some people working hard on it...

[SALEEN S7R]

I think u will find now that the rules for the LMES and FIA GT along with British GT, FFSA, are all the same. Sure differnt name for LMES, but the same regulations, this is the main reason why teams from FIA GT and British GT will be able to run cars in the LMES so easily. The rules are all the same now, they used to be differnt - ACO used to have carbon brakes and H pattern gearboxes whilst FIA GT allowed Sequential gearboxes and used Steel brakes, but in 2003 the rules changed, thats why Corvette switched to the Sequential gearbox for LM 2003 instead of using the H pattern as before.

[Cadete]

Taken from the Appendix J - Art.258 - Technical Regulations for Grand Touring cars, from the FIA site:

11.2 Brake disks
The brake disks must be made from ferrous material.
The use of titanium is authorised for the brake pistons and for the brake disks attachements.


And from the REGLEMENT TECHNIQUE A.C.O. 2004 GRAND TOURISME DE SPORT "LM"GTS:

12.3 - Disques & Plaquettes :
12.3.1 - Matériau : libre.

[Fab]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
They are the most beautiful racecars ever built. Anyone who thinks prototypes with a roof (or worse, a bulbous roof) look better than the current LMP900s obviously doesn't know what he is talking about.

End of story.

Ouch ! Huh... is there a place for a small IMO ?

Originally posted by EliseGT1
I don't like to be quoted for the half of my sentence! I said:

You can't say "people who like closed prototypes don't know what they're talking about".

Your reaction on this is: Yes I can.

My reaction is: No you can't. When someone says he likes a prototype with a roof, then that's his opinion. And because it's his opinion, he definitely knows what he's talking about. End of story.

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
I agree Elise, just a shame that a few indaviduals on this board cant respect everyones opinions, unless its the same as theirs that is.

It seems to go to the dogs... what about leaving this part of the topic on the side, please ?

[PaulSands]

Originally posted by billnchristy
always wondered why they didnt combine with GTs though...

They combined the Spa round with the British GT...problem is the protoype boys didn't like getting passed by the Gulf Air Golf in the wet

The LMES approach has to be the best step forward with only four high profile races in addition to Le Mans it will hopefully keep costs down and encourage entrants...that seems to be evident in the almost weekly news of new entrants (many in prototypes)

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by EliseGT1
My reaction is: No you can't.

Just did.

You see, I am getting slightly fed up with trying to be unbiassed while others aren't. "They look like F3000s with fenders." - Ever seen an F3000, ever seen an LMP? The difference is that between night and day. By the same token that someone can make such a statement, somebody else can come along and state that "everything with a roof is ugly, the bigger the roof the uglier it gets, and whoever disagrees doesn't know what he is talking about". The way I just have.

"End of story." - Wrong. There.

The FIASCC never had a decent TV deal, it was technically restrictive, it got caught up in the nonsensical FIA vs. ACO rollhoop debate, and it was poorly promoted. The organisers tried to compete with Le Mans to the point of outlawing LMP cars. The main incentive for campaigning a prototype in Europe is Le Mans, so why bother doing the FIASCC. They competed with FIA-GT, with its infinitely better promotion, which resulted in absurd date clashes. The cars got old, the teams went away to GT racing where they could find sponsors and attract paying drivers. In the end, noone cared anymore. This is why FIA sportscar racing was so sad, and why it has seized to exist.

[Nordic]

I dont think it really matters what the cars look like to our eyes its what the 'new spectators' find attractive, it also matters less as the global on track spectators will only find something attractive when they see it on telly, as this does not happen on anything other than dedicated channels where the casual viewer would not go by chance.
All the FIA care to promote is F1 and ralling, everthing else is just a sideshow for the fans

[Duffacus]

Well sports cars have ran for many years with roofs, Ferrari 250 GTO's, Ford GT40's, Porsche 962's, Jaguars XJR's etc and not all of them were ugly, but i like prototypes as well, especially the Lola B2K/10! so whether you know what your talking about or not , its just what you like yourself. Say "if you like that, you like that", "if she is a fan of that, she is a fan of that" etc. Everyone is an individual and everyone likes their own things. I like the Jags etc and it doesn't mean i don't know what i'm on about, its just what i like, just in the same way i like prototypes. so i think you should just like what you like and don't make a comment in which other people could strongly disagree so we end up getting an argument. We are here to talk about why FIA sportscars failed and thats what i think we should do

[EliseGT1]

Yes !!!!!

That's what I think as well. You don't have to like everything, just as long as you respect that someone might have (possibly will have) another opinion than you have.

Let's use the words "IMO" and "I Think" more often, because that sounds a bit more friendly than presenting your opinion as a fact.

Maybe someone else has another comment on the initial question: why have sportscars failed?

[JAG]

Back to the original question.

When Group C collapsed, BPR GT was set up an the GT1 class was the class that was interseting the fans and manufactuers. At the time only a few low profile LMPs competed at LM such as the old Kremers and Courages. GT1 was were it was at.

BPR became FIA GT and manufactuer interest stepped up. At the same time the FIA SCC was set-up to cater for LMPs, but with the intention to limit the series to privateers and customer chassis/engines, leaving FIA GT to the manufactuers.

Unfortunately for FIA GT the manufactuers began to leave GT1 and concentrate on LMPs for there Le Mans program, which left FIA GTs with a tiny GT1 grid that was not worth saving. Therefore FIA GT only allowed GTS(GT2) and GT(GT3).

However the likes of the BMW V12 LMR and Audi R8 were not welcome in the FIA SCC for a variety of reasons ranging from rollhoops, paddle shift gearboxes, factory backed teams etc. Therefore BMW and Audi left Europe for the ALMS were they could run to full ACO rules.

This left FIA GTs with a well run, but unexciting grid packed with Vipers and 911s, and none of the rasmataz and promotion that the GT1 manufactuers had brought to the series.

FIA SCC on the other hand had a healthy series with legions of privateer 333SPs, Lola, R&S's, etc. but none of the factory involvment and star drivers/teams, that bring the TV/media coverage.

In 2000 the ALMS organised to 'fly-away' events to test the water in Europe for the possiblity of an ELMS being set up in 2001. These events were a big success and the ELMS was born.

However what nobody conted on was that FIA SCC and FIA GT teams would stay loyal to there respective series, in the hope of building a better future for each series. The result of this was that when the US teams went back to the US after the 2 'flay-away' races in the 2001 ELMS the grids were very thredbare with no apparent interest in the series from European teams.

During 2001 however FIA GTs began to get its act together with good TV/media coverage which lured many FIA SCC teams such as BMS to FIA GT.

Since then FIA GT has gone from strength to strength while FIA SCC has slowly imploded.

In 2003 Ratel (who runs FIA GT) bought the rights to FIA SCC with the intention of reorganising the series into a short series of 1000KM races with GTs (from national GT series such as British GTs) running alongside the LMPs.

When Ratel heard of the ACOs plans for the LMES (which is being set up to revatalise the LMP class), and the obvious draw of the Le Mans brand, he realised he could not comete with them and decided to join forces for the good of European sportscar racing (particualrly LMPs).

This situation avoids date clashes etc. between FIA GT/LMES and leaves the future of European sportscar racing(LMES)in the hands of the ACO rather thant the FIA, who have conflicting interests with the FIA.

Its also worth bearing in mind that since an EU investigation the FIA no longer has any direct involvment in the running of 'FIA' series hence the the likes of Ratel, Eccleston, Richards etc. being handed the rights to FIA GT/SCC, F1 and WRC respectively. So in theory no inteference in FIA GT as we had in the Group C days. The ACO running the LMES independently of the FIA will also prevent interference from the FIA.

As for the number of series in Europe, there have always been enough teams/manufactuers/interest, to support national GT and touring car series as well as the International ones. Running very similar regs helps, plus there is no Oval racing of any significance in Europe resulting in 99% of teams competing in 'road racing' unlike in the US.

[Fab]

Originally posted by billnchristy
If LM racing is so big and racing in general so big in Europe, then why did the FIA Sportscars fail so miserably?

Le Mans is great first of all for British public ; the race by itself has a relative weak audience in France (due to Football, F1, etc... and french behavior I described before about the fact of "take part" and "be sure to win").

Is Le Mans such a great race elsewhere in Europe ? Please give hints, European fellow members

I don't feel that sportcars failed, but you're question is more precise, and point FIA : FIA-Sportscars Championship failed... because somebody wanted to see it fail, IMHO (don't ask me names, you know them).

FIA-GT is a success, because those same persons thought that this category wasn't a menace to F1.

A question of involvement/commitment ; see LM, see Sebring, see Daytona, see Bathurst, see Spa ; when the commitment is great by the different parts, the race is a success.

As you can see, my opinion is not very technical

[Cadete]

JAG, thanks for such a good explanation on the situation

and Fab, regarding the way people look at Le Mans across Europe, at least here in Portugal only people who know about endurance racing think about it. If you say the name Schumacher, people will recognize it, but if I mention Audi R8 or Kristensen (sp?), people will look at me wondering what i'm talking about... Endurance racing is more closed to the casual observer...

this seems to be slowly changing, thought, at least i start to see more information on endurance series on the portuguese racing magazines I buy

[PaulSands]

Unfortunately the majority of people see motor racing as F1 and that alone. In the past the star drivers weren't exclusively F1...they did sportscars, saloons & other single seaters so the audience and public awareness was naturally greater

[Fab]

Bad news, Cadete and PaulSands, I was hopping best from the other countries in Europe...

More opinions ?

[independent]

This is an interesting question. I suppose Billandchristy hasn't spent a lot of time in Europe so therefore it would be difficult to understand the draw of F1, much like most Europeans have no clue what Nascar is about.

However, I think there are a number of encouraging factors as to the future of endurance racing.

1) The differences between Ratel and ACO have been hammered out. I would hesitate to call it a partnership, more like a peaceful co-existence. But it will create a stable environment to invest for teams. As most of the traditional teams took their technology and marketing dollars to F1 over sheer frustration with the ever shifting Sportscar scene, maybe now they will take another look. F1 is a world brand and offers a lot of bang for the buck in terms of selling cars (which is why factories compete in the first place.) I have read that FIA-GT will be a world series by 2005 with entry into the Asian market, etc. It wasn't too long ago that they ran a Sebring event. I would think that they may be investigating an American date in the future. But the fact that the Lmes and FIA-GT series will co-exist with cooperation is a HUGE factor in the future. Factories expressed hesitation over pouring millions into one event (LeMans) and with the Lmes offering a season of sorts with repeated exposure and a return to the circuits with rich history, it can only be good. The flood of new teams and factory interest (particularily in the LMES) is good news. And with the recent release of numerous road going "supercars" (more than I can ever remember) and the USA being market #1, I imagine this will enrich the ALMS field in the next year or two. You must also factor in the recent release of new ACO rules which have been anticipated for two years, thus limiting new projects. 2005 and beyond should see healthy growth for all involved. And with stable series and renewed factory interest comes marketing dollars as well as serious efforts to "sell the product and series."

As far as F1 goes in Europe, I can liken it to an old joke that goes around. "Whats the difference between God and Michael Schumacher?"

God doesn't think he's an F1 driver

cheers

[PaulSands]

yes we mustn't forget the FIA SCC is dead long live LMES..purely in terms of fan enthusiasm and anticipation endurance racing in Europe is looking a lot healthier than it has for many a year

[JAG]

I don't think it is worth comparing F1 to LM/Sportscars anymore.

F1 is on a different, not neccesarily better, level to ALL other motorsport including great series such as DTM, WRC, CART, ETCC etc.

F1 has little appeal for me anymore, and judging by the crowds at Silverstone etc. F1 is not as popular as it once was.

Its also worth remembering that the manufactuers rushed into F1 in the late 1990s beliving it was the only place to be, but are now struggling to justify there budgets.

Ford/Jaguar are on the verge of pulling out, plus Renault are said to be planning to pull out if they do not win the F1 World Championship by 2005. There are also no 'privateers' ready to fill the enivitable void. F1 grids could be down to 14/16 cars very soon. Remember the manufactuer reliant WSC in 1991/1992.

Le Mans is a name known around the world from the Europe, the US to Japan. Each area of the world have there own particular favourite series, but Le Mans, the Indy 500 and the WRC are the only other events that have worldwide appeal.

The LMES being run by the ACO and not the FIA cannot be underestimated for the long term success of the series.

[billnchristy]

Thank you all, a lot of this was very new to me. I think to strive the ACO needs to have a better way of changing the rules. I wouldnt ask for something as crazy as Grand Ams 10 year plan, but a good stable formula that would draw manufacturers and keep them there, not just the firecracker effect we get now with a boom! and were gone.

That combined with a marketing program that would get the product out to the intended audience (ie the world!). It seems to me that sportscars are much more marketable than F1 yet it is so ignored. F1 appeals to an upscale dare I say rich audience (based on ticket prices and so forth) whereas sportscar racing is very affordable. Sportscars also appeal to just about everyone, everyone has seen a Porsche, or a Viper or dreamed about a Lambo or a Ferrari, those that dont care about that have BMW, Mercedes, Bentley and Audi to cheer for!! Once everything gets rolling hopefully we will see Toyota, Nissan and Mazda back at it!! There is a ton of appeal and no attempts at marketing...heck, gillete is using a Saleen S7 in one of their ads., itd only take an edit to make it an S7R and even little things like that make a difference.

[PaulSands]

Wasn't there a Saleen in the Jim Carey movie Bruce Almighty? Somebody at work was raving about the latest Project Gotham Racing game and the Saleen in there...when I showed him some of my pictures of the real thing his was suitably interested