O'Neill's little dig - Page 2

**Craig** · 12 Jan 2004, 17:17 (Ref:835631)

Sorry I forget that not everyone gets to read the Salisbury Journal hype - the way they go on about him you'd think he was gonna be the next Ayrton Senna!

racingdad · 12 Jan 2004, 17:17 (Ref:835632)

every one always says that the driving standards in saloons is lower than the comparable single seater series - I for one am not convinced. Yes a lot of guys move from single seaters to saloons and if any good, they do well. But in reality you'll find that a when a good driver realises he just doesn't have the ££££$$$$ to compete in single seaters so moves over, he does well; on the other hand, an average single seater driver will also be an average saloon driver.

Frank Rizzo · 12 Jan 2004, 18:26 (Ref:835728)

On the subject of Hines, I'm with racingdad. Not really sure how he would have fared in Clios or the crashfest that was Seat's, or even in BTC-P if there had been a broader and more reliable field.

It would be far more appealing to us supporters if BTC-P had actually worked as a feeder for BTCC, but it's impending doom made it a pretty poor sideshow last year. What a shame to see Jim Edwards, who you may recall was the inaugral Clio champ, and beat Danny Buxton that year, pushing that poxy Accord to within an inch of it's death, and then finally end up with 'equal' machinery that couldn't finish a race.

Back to thread point, and personally, I think that Owy would have been the more popular choice, and certainly would have achieved better results for VX in 04, but as has been said, the cheque signing pen is mightier than the right foot (or something).

Perhaps he should set up Team Spice Girls? Head to head with Team Atomic Kitten. Team Michelle Thingy from Pop Idol?

Jonny Apex · 12 Jan 2004, 19:32 (Ref:835808)

Quote:

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
The question is, would someone like van der Merwe or Hamilton neccessarily be a great Touring Car driver? People like Morbidelli and Palmer weren't.

But Tarquini and Winkelhock were/are. So, too, Menu (FFords/F3), Rydell (F3), Plato (FRenault, F3), Muller (F2). The list goes on.

If you can drive, you can drive.

**Craig** · 12 Jan 2004, 23:03 (Ref:836006)

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Rizzo
What a shame to see Jim Edwards, who you may recall was the inaugral Clio champ, and beat Danny Buxton that year, pushing that poxy Accord to within an inch of it's death, and then finally end up with 'equal' machinery that couldn't finish a race.

The equal machinery was equal. Well almost - at least Jimmy's was legal. The main difference was the fact Jimmy was only allowed three mechanics as opposed to the dozens who seemed to be available for the other car. The padlock on the truck carrying the spares didn't help much either...

Mackmot · 13 Jan 2004, 02:21 (Ref:836120)

The reason why single seaters are better is nothing to do with whether there is a roof or not its down to dreams. When talented drivers dream about their future they dream about F1 not Touring Cars so what do they do to follow this dream, yes they do Junior Single Seater championships. This means there is simply a lot more capable drivers in these championships than there are in Junior Tin Top championships.

Oh yeah Racingdad, Hines did Junior Formula Ford in 2000 with Young Guns Racing, National in 2001 with me, and the last half of the season in 2002 with JLR. He is reasonably talented driver but is not really bothered, he would prefer to DJ but his dad wants him to race. He can be very quick on his day but others his mind is just not with it. I think he will do better in BTCC though because its more fun and his mates think its cool.

racingdad · 13 Jan 2004, 07:11 (Ref:836270)

Thank you mackmot

**bella** · 13 Jan 2004, 17:56 (Ref:836928)

thank you for what? putting the point i was making into english?

racingdad · 13 Jan 2004, 18:13 (Ref:836938)

" a reasonably talented driver - not bothered"

also

"a lot more capable drivers in these championships than there are in Junior Tin Top championships"

not that they are more talented, just more of them!

Most young hotshots want to be F1 drivers (fact); not many make it (fact);
some never get out of the junior-junior levels of single seaters through lack of money - not lack of talent (fact); some of those simply stop, some stay year after year in the junior formulae before giving up; some go into saloons or GT (fact).

I know of several drivers who moved into either GT or Saloon racing because they couldn't raise the budget to continue single seaters - a year in FR2000 costs £150k ish whereas a year in Clios or Seat Cupras about half that. If you have talent but don't have £150k (or the multiples thereof to keep progressing, and you wish to remain in racing what would you do?

mystery racer · 13 Jan 2004, 19:15 (Ref:837002)

Which is why of course many of the tin top converts seem to shine when they make the change from a seemingly average single seater past... They may have been competing in single seaters for a fraction of the budget - not really been on the pace due to lack of testing/decent equipment/not being in the best team (hence hiding the true talent) - and hey presto - they go tin tops and are bang on the pace - because they're no longer well down on budget of the competition and can compete on an equal basis.

So as Jonny Apex said, if you can drive you can drive!

Mackmot · 13 Jan 2004, 21:21 (Ref:837135)

Why do people think that if you can drive you can drive, right from the word go. Even the most talented drivers need to learn to drive, learn to develop their driving and learn to work with the engineer to develop the car. It just like everything else in the world. Its not like a talent physisist is able to push the boundries of physics without going to school and university first.

Another point about single seater teams is that they are more geared up for teaching young drivers. We help them develop their skill and knowledge because that is what the formulae are designed for.

BTW Racingdad I dont understand your arguements they dont seem to conclude themselves. Does that mean you agree or disagree with what I said??

Mackmot · 13 Jan 2004, 21:22 (Ref:837138)

Oh yeah if you have the talent and you wish to remain progressing you sell your soul. If you dont you simply dont want it enough.

speedy king · 13 Jan 2004, 21:24 (Ref:837143)

Quote:

Originally posted by btcc-thunder
Murray definately deserves a btcc drive he was extremely fast, at snetteton he was knocked of at the esses, resumed car in tatters but was still as fast as the leaders and was passing people!

Agree with you there, though 50% of his car was missing!

mystery racer · 13 Jan 2004, 22:13 (Ref:837194)

I do agree with you Mackmot regarding learning to drive - I don't think that was ever in question. The comment "if you can drive..." was merely about the raw talent - a talented driver will be good whatever he drives (regardless of how long he/she takes to learn the car).

However, I'm not so sure about the comment "simply dont want it enough"... Seriously, how many guys are going to come up with £150k for FR, then £300k for F3 before they are even 20 to progress to F1? Alas it comes down to family £££ of thousands to get going. Now I'm not saying that is the rule, but anything else is certainly an exception.

racingdad · 14 Jan 2004, 08:00 (Ref:837574)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mackmot

BTW Racingdad I dont understand your arguements they dont seem to conclude themselves. Does that mean you agree or disagree with what I said??

I agree that Luke is reasonably talented, not particularly dedicated and only doing it because Martin is pushing.

I also agree that junior single seaters have greater strength in depth - i.e. more driver with talent.

However the front runners in SEAT or Clios are as good as anyone, given the right level of backing and the right team.

tator2001uk · 14 Jan 2004, 14:36 (Ref:837979)

NO MATTER HOW MUCH TALENT YOU GOT, YOU CANT GET ANYWHERE IN MOTORSPORT UNLESS YOU GOT MEGA MONEY!!! OR YOU ARE THE SON OR DAUGHTER OF A WEALTHY PERSON. I HAVE BEAT LUKE HINES IN KARTS IN CADET YEARS AND MY KART WASNT BRAND NEW FOR EACH MEETING, ALSO IM STILL ENJOYING KARTING AND THAT IS WHAT SPORT SHOULD BE ABOUT. 1-2 FOR VAUXHALL MULLER THOMPSON OBVIOUSLY NEXT YEAR, MATT NEAL TO GET INDY WIN OBVIOUSLY AND THE REST TO KEEP BREAKING DOWN OR CRASHING ALSO ROBB HUFF TO GET MOST CRASHES OR DNFS AFTER HIS SEAT STOCK CAR DRIVING.

FUN+FUN+FUN=KARTING

johngeorge · 14 Jan 2004, 14:59 (Ref:837996)

Hi i dont really think thats fair on Rob Huff , i raced against him in Clio's and although he aint getting out of anyones way and he will trade rub for rub, he was no worse than any of the top ten.
In Seat he won by being consistant not by aggression , i thought Hodgets looked a bit quicker but also a touch to aggressive ending up with all or nothing.
Buy I would have to agree overall the Seat guys did loose the plot on a regular basis , but it was staged for television.

**touringlegend** · 14 Jan 2004, 20:36 (Ref:838405)

Quote:

Originally posted by racingdad
I agree that Luke is reasonably talented, not particularly dedicated and only doing it because Martin is pushing.

Just makes it look worse on last years BTC-P field doesn't it - if the champion wasn't really bothered!

If it's really true that he isn't dedicated to it then I feel sorry for the other drivers who were working hard to fund a drive most of them would of given anything for.

Maisie · 14 Jan 2004, 21:55 (Ref:838488)

tator, I think you need to get a new keyboard, your CAPS LOCK SEEMS TO BE STUCK.

(Hint: In forum netiquette terms, using caps is SHOUTING. DOn't do it.)

racingdad · 15 Jan 2004, 07:13 (Ref:838896)

Quote:

Originally posted by touringlegend
Just makes it look worse on last years BTC-P field doesn't it - if the champion wasn't really bothered!

If it's really true that he isn't dedicated to it then I feel sorry for the other drivers who were working hard to fund a drive most of them would of given anything for.

By "not really bothered" I mean he does it because its cool and because dad wants him to, not because he has aburning passion to become a fulltime racing driver. He certainly isn't the first driver in that mold and doesn't make him any slower as such... But as I think a lot of people have said on this thread, it wasn't a particularly strong BTC-P field and as I keep banging on, I really don't think he'd have been a regular serious challenge at the front end of the grid in either Seats or Clios.

mystery racer · 15 Jan 2004, 08:45 (Ref:838971)

So, err...what happened to O'Neill's little dig!

On a slightly more positive note - the facts are, no-one can really be sure of Luke's motivation (although Mackmot seems best qualified) and his outright speed (you're only as good as your opposition and he's won in 2003 so we can't take that away from him). He's made the best of his situation/resources so good luck to him in 2004! Besides, he's not your typical clean cut racing driver so that might be fun

- especially as the BTCC atempts to go "mainstream" over the next few years.

We'll just have to wait and see how he gets on.

The Bear · 15 Jan 2004, 15:42 (Ref:839319)

There is a small spot of something on my monitor screen (probably coffee) and the title of this thread looked like "O'Neill's little dic"

racingdad · 15 Jan 2004, 15:52 (Ref:839333)

Quote:

Originally posted by The Bear
There is a small spot of something on my monitor screen (probably coffee) and the title of this thread looked like "O'Neill's little dic"

rather than upset poor old Owy - try cleaning your screen!

The Bear · 15 Jan 2004, 16:14 (Ref:839355)

Have done now. I wondered how Jonny Apex knew and what he was going to say about it.

Les · 15 Jan 2004, 19:03 (Ref:839499)

Luke's lack of motivation - give over. There he was at Autosport wearing his Vauxhall shirt (sorry Luke but it clashes with the hair), beaming from ear to ear just gunning to get out there.