DP "The Class" is bad, but What about the Builders...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Which were turned into proper racecars by the friendly people of the ACO who allowed them to develop (DEVELOP!) into something more spectacular. The DPs will never develop, change, evolve into anything other than what they are already because they aren't allowed to. - Unless the ACO sets up a DP class at LE Mans, and lets development run rampant again


Sounds wrong doesn't it. A bit like F1.

Stop all this restrictor BS, in any series, not just GA, and they will need bigger tires to cope with the HP. To heck with chassis tweaking.
Bob

[PascaLM]

Originally posted by Fogelhund
I couldn't agree more. I think that the DP concept in itself is brilliant, but the details are horrid....

...and a redesign of the roof line, and I think most would gladly embrace the idea.

I totally agree, a new rule concerning windscreen width could change the whole look of the cars.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
Stop all this restrictor BS, in any series, not just GA, and they will need bigger tires to cope with the HP. To heck with chassis tweaking.
Bob

Yes, and why not do as they do in NASCAR, and build a separate chassis for every track, then you don't have to tweak anything.

Or shouldn't we rather go back to proper racing, with cars that are adjustable, and are improved through development and modification? Remember these words? Is this really such an obscene concept? I am so tired of all those phoney spec series popping up everywhere. The cars ARE the stars. When all cars are alike, what do you have? Boredom.

How long did the R&S Mk.III compete successfully? The 962? And why? Because they, the cars themselves evolved - the rulebook allowed them to evolve. The first DPs are obsolete already. (Yes this is my opinion.) - What can the respective constructors do about it, in the way of development, improvement, modification? - they can build a new car. Gen 1, Gen 3, Gen 12,... - and the teams can buy new cars every season? I'm sure they will. Aren't these the same people who are whining about "the economy, the economy, oh the economy"? Whoever thought of the DP concept, they obviously didn't think it through.

GrandAm GT will be fun to watch.

[Bob Riebe]

I understand and agree with your points Cy.
What I was saying, although in a incomplete abstract, If they let the engines develope non-spec. controlled horsepower, the cars would suddenly become so quick they would have to tweak the chassis not to go faster but to withstand the torque, at least in the push-rod engines, the cars would then develope.
What really annoys me is (and you are one who has a weight phobia) is that some suggest they should make the cars quicker by removing weight, not by eliminating the asinine spec. restrictor rules.
I am not big one on safety first, but light cars are inherantly more dangerous by simple reason of less mass, less material to ablsorb impact.(Also less weight to keep the car nailed to the ground.)
I am not going to debate slide rule physics but I find it odd that some are so quick to blame excess weight rather than excess restrictions.
Bob

[billnchristy]

Im pretty happy with the development of the cars. 5 seconds in qualifying is no joke. And this with endurance engines too. Yeah believe it or not, they do have seperate engines for the long races that make the HP at lower RPMs. (dont throw any "see it aint cheap" statements in because the engines really arent pricey compared)

The rules structure is not against growth or development and it isnt as "spec" as people seem to believe. Have a sit and really read them, yeah theres no "do whatcha want" in there, but there isnt any of that in ACO either.

I like em, I dont love em, and I dont think theyre gods gift, but they provide good racing at a good cost and teams believe that as much as I do. Look at ticket prices too, you cant go to the movies for as little.

Example:
6hrs of the Glen 33 bucks for all 3 days. Not too shabby. (it was 15 during the holidays)

[Scrutineer78]

Originally posted by Fab
OK, now you stop immediately to post that way, or I delete your next post.

Right. We'll just go back to ripping GA and the participants for choosing the "lesser" series and everything will be dandy-do.

[JAG]

I've no problem with Grand-Am, but it should indeed be seen as a lesser formula.

The problem with US racing is that it is dominated by NASCAR, and all types of spec, controlled racing.

Sadly the American public have been weened(sp) of road racing and seem to believe Oval racing is the be all and end all.

This is perfectly highlighted by the number of Sportscar/GT/Touring car series we have in the relatively small area, Europe, compared to the US.

[veeten]

well, we're sorry, Scruty, but you seem to confuse this place with The Race Site or GrandAm.com, as if we will blindly accept everything that Raffauf, Klym, and Roger E. do to be "...for the greater good of the sport".

Unfortunately, we have a better understanding of how the motorsports universe will eventually have its way, irrespective of whatever rules are written or enforced. It always looks rosey, at first. But then as the better-funded team owners come in and use their assets, the field will change where it comes to those that will stand the better chances to win races, as well as championships.

It's trully a shame that you haven't taken the time to trully read the opinions of those whom have posted, seeing that most are based upon history, past experience, and understanding of rules, in both forms of sportscar racing.

It's not for a lack of "rah-rah", it's just knowing how the "story" always ends...

[Vman]

Originally posted by billnchristy
Im pretty happy with the development of the cars. 5 seconds in qualifying is no joke. And this with endurance engines too. Yeah believe it or not, they do have seperate engines for the long races that make the HP at lower RPMs. (dont throw any "see it aint cheap" statements in because the engines really arent pricey compared)

In an interview with Terry Borcheller he says that Ganassi used a quallifiying engine to take pole. The engines may be cheaper, but when you start needing quallifiying engines just to be competitve the costs start to rise. Teams like Ganassi will find ways to gain that unfair advantage even in a cost controlled series.

[veeten]

Originally posted by Vman
In an interview with Terry Borcheller he says that Ganassi used a quallifiying engine to take pole. The engines may be cheaper, but when you start needing quallifiying engines just to be competitve the costs start to rise. Teams like Ganassi will find ways to gain that unfair advantage even in a cost controlled series.

"...an unfair advantage"...

now who made that phrase famous, hmmmm?...

I expect to see HIM in the series in a short time soon. Trust me.

[Vman]

Originally posted by veeten
"...an unfair advantage"...

now who made that phrase famous, hmmmm?...

I expect to see HIM in the series in a short time soon. Trust me.

I'm not sure who you are talking about? I believe the son of the man who coined the phrase is already in the series...

[veeten]

yes, but I meant the man that was team owner back then.

He has a IRL team, and is involved in NASCAR. But remember, he got his start long ago in sportscars, so it would be like "comming home" to him.

You know who...

[thebear]

Originally posted by veeten
yes, but I meant the man that was team owner back then.

He has a IRL team, and is involved in NASCAR. But remember, he got his start long ago in sportscars, so it would be like "comming home" to him.

You know who...

Occaisionally known as "The Captain".

[GP Racer]

Last year on this forum, I don't think you could have gotten more than 5 posts out of a DP thread. Now look at the discussion, and the interest. Some see it as being pretty good, and I think others see a a possible threat to sports car purity.

I think the DP formula is a good one, maybe not for the purists among us, but for the average guy, wanting to see a race. I mean, the cars are relatively good looking, and they provide close, door-to-door racing with alot of passing and lead changes. You can talk all day about the restrictors, adding more HP, better aero, and all of that, but if they provide good racing, with decent drivers, at decent venues, people will watch. This series seems to be working on the KISS method-keep it simple, stupid.

For better or worse, this method has worked for NASCAR, and with the France marketing machine, GARRA might just be the NASCAR of the road racing world.

[skycafe]

A qualifying engine? Well, if they are restricted and it is a level playing field, how can such a thing as a qualifying engine exist?

Also, if the Riley and Crawford are Gen II, and we also include the Doran, which I think we must, then in year two of a spec formula, meant to last for ten years you have turned some of the cars that are already rolling stock obsolete? Well then, they aren't quite the investment they are purported to be.

Now, somewhere over the weekend I was hearing quotes from Riley and Crawford about how often they were going into a windtunnel. Also, Crawford was forced into having special gearsets made to cope with the restriction of RPM for the adjustments imposed after the dyno runs late last year. Having been drop jawed at the cost of gear sets for bikes and cars over the years that were production racing parts, I am sure I would faint dead away at the cost of custom gear ratios.

I dare say that the yearly catering bill for a top team to entertain clients, prospective clients, and various hangers on would exceed the cost of a DP chassis.

If you really want to level playing fields when it comes to engines, simply take something like a Chev small block V8, have a standard builder, and lease those out at some nice price. If brand name x, y or z wants in on the action, they can pay their money and the badge can be changed to x, y, or z: some money to the team, other money to sanctioning body for them and some to roll back into prize fund. Why not, if all engines are to be the same? What would the difference be? Price it right and you could get every brand name from Kia to Cadillac....Daewoo to Daimler.

[veeten]

of course, the reason as to why it has worked for NASCAR is that, unlike Sportscar or Open Wheel racing, there isn't any competition against it within that genre. Even when USAC was running a Stock car program up to the mid-70's, it didn't have the strength that NASCAR had, nor was there the amount of energy within USAC to keep it going.

Then there is the ACO/IMSA and JGTC, which had or has races scheduled for the near future here, which means that there will be opportunities to compare different series, including GARRA.

The KISS method only works when all parties are interested in keeping their end of the bargain, otherwise there will be chances for teams to "take advantage" of loopholes & shortcommings within the rules. This has happened with other series, and as we've seen so far with Ganassi using "qualifying engines", it's only the start.

The rest of us have seen this, time and again, in other series, so don't say that we didn't warn you...

[billnchristy]

All the teams that have been "penalized" by the RPM changes have probably made gear changes.
from GA rulebook:
5-7 Gear ratios are free.

Teams have probably been playing with ratios since the beginning and probably even have different sets for different tracks.

I think a lot of people are looking at these things all wrong, this isnt Spec Miata. there are a lot of important open items teams can use to gain (or lose) and advantage.

I think cheap is abused a lot too, the word should be more relatively cheap or comparitively cheap.

***Ill get an answer to those probablys thursday or friday, my friends away right now***
R&S never let his MkIII fall by the wayside, Im sure there will be upgrade kits and whatnot, maybe even new bodies by the end of the year for the cars that are lacking...im pretty sure they will not just abandon the car and leave the teams hanging (except pichhio maybe).

[skycafe]

Why Piccio? They are as much in it as anyone else, aren't they?

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by veeten
of course, the reason as to why it has worked for NASCAR is that, unlike Sportscar or Open Wheel racing, there isn't any competition against it within that genre. Even when USAC was running a Stock car program up to the mid-70's, it didn't have the strength that NASCAR had, nor was there the amount of energy within USAC to keep it going.

Then there is the ACO/IMSA and JGTC, which had or has races scheduled for the near future here, which means that there will be opportunities to compare different series, including GARRA.

The KISS method only works when all parties are interested in keeping their end of the bargain, otherwise there will be chances for teams to "take advantage" of loopholes & shortcommings within the rules. This has happened with other series, and as we've seen so far with Ganassi using "qualifying engines", it's only the start.

The rest of us have seen this, time and again, in other series, so don't say that we didn't warn you...

I think that GARRA and the ALMS are sufficiently different enough, to not actually compete with one another. They will draw a different type of fan. If there are enough fans to support the two series, is another question altogether.

As for the Super-teams like Ganassi, time will tell if there money will be enough to make a difference here. It didn't in the 24.

I am duly warned!

[RacingManiac]

what eventually put Ganassi out of contention? I didn' actually catch the race as I was at a TV-less place doing assignment on Solidworks and Differential Equations....

[Mags]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Last year on this forum, I don't think you could have gotten more than 5 posts out of a DP thread. Now look at the discussion, and the interest. Some see it as being pretty good, and I think others see a a possible threat to sports car purity.

I think the DP formula is a good one, maybe not for the purists among us, but for the average guy, wanting to see a race. I mean, the cars are relatively good looking, and they provide close, door-to-door racing with alot of passing and lead changes. You can talk all day about the restrictors, adding more HP, better aero, and all of that, but if they provide good racing, with decent drivers, at decent venues, people will watch. This series seems to be working on the KISS method-keep it simple, stupid.

For better or worse, this method has worked for NASCAR, and with the France marketing machine, GARRA might just be the NASCAR of the road racing world.

Well, I'll just wade in here...

I, for the first time IN MY LIFE.. watched this race, with the perspective of having to "get to know" the racers, for my job. From what I understand, these "DP"s are only in the 2nd year? In the present form. While I was upset at the way the coverage went, all the focus on the Nascar drivers, and not enough on the other racers, I really enjoyed the ending. I think the rain really mixed it up, and it seemed to me that these DP cars are able to take a bit of racing action. butm that is what it's all about, right? Development.

If it's one thing I have learned in the last year, racing is well, racing! If there are people that go out to see it, and racers that love racing it, what's to get upset about? Heck, I was in TEARS seeing those drivers up there that won! I was just thrilled for them. So it's not F1.. well, not eveyone gets to drive in F1. But not eveyone gets to say they won the 24 hours of Daytona, either!

[gttouring]

is it possible for a sanctioning body to register all the available team chassis (like in OZV8's) and limit a team to say 2 or 3 chassis? any more and penalty or not allowed to run, any non-registered chassis. the number plate is distributed by the Sanctioner and attached to the car and fixed and sealed to avoided tampering.
ideally this would really cut costs and keep the "setup per track art," a real skill. this would work across the board to keep costs down, how many GT porsches per team are there?? only what they run i bet and they do fine, why not have it introduced in DP, and NASCAR, and F1 and USAC...

[skycafe]

Mags, you are right. I can't imagine the feeling Tony Stewart had when he lost left rear wheel and spun to a stop, race gone. The Bell Doran was walking wounded and had two Porsches after it like jackals after a wounded gazell. The feeling at Bell that they did get the engine to the end, and into victory circle.

I had a great time. I love the sport of endurance auto racing, the cars coming into dawn looking as if they have been to war. The heartbreak and triumph of a getting the car to the end, surviving the carnage, the mechanics, fabricators, drivers all having done their jobs well, and massive amounts of luck and fortune helping it all along.

[Mags]

Originally posted by skycafe
A qualifying engine? Well, if they are restricted and it is a level playing field, how can such a thing as a qualifying engine exist?

Also, if the Riley and Crawford are Gen II, and we also include the Doran, which I think we must, then in year two of a spec formula, meant to last for ten years you have turned some of the cars that are already rolling stock obsolete? Well then, they aren't quite the investment they are purported to be.

Now, somewhere over the weekend I was hearing quotes from Riley and Crawford about how often they were going into a windtunnel. Also, Crawford was forced into having special gearsets made to cope with the restriction of RPM for the adjustments imposed after the dyno runs late last year. Having been drop jawed at the cost of gear sets for bikes and cars over the years that were production racing parts, I am sure I would faint dead away at the cost of custom gear ratios.

I dare say that the yearly catering bill for a top team to entertain clients, prospective clients, and various hangers on would exceed the cost of a DP chassis.

If you really want to level playing fields when it comes to engines, simply take something like a Chev small block V8, have a standard builder, and lease those out at some nice price. If brand name x, y or z wants in on the action, they can pay their money and the badge can be changed to x, y, or z: some money to the team, other money to sanctioning body for them and some to roll back into prize fund. Why not, if all engines are to be the same? What would the difference be? Price it right and you could get every brand name from Kia to Cadillac....Daewoo to Daimler.

I'm REALLY curious... and stupid. The Porsches roll off of the trailer. And they almost won it all. Are there any restrictions on these DP's cost wise? Someone like Ganassi isn't going to get involved unless he thinks he can win. And he has big money.

[Mags]

Originally posted by skycafe
Mags, you are right. I can't imagine the feeling Tony Stewart had when he lost left rear wheel and spun to a stop, race gone. The Bell Doran was walking wounded and had two Porsches after it like jackals after a wounded gazell. The feeling at Bell that they did get the engine to the end, and into victory circle.

I had a great time. I love the sport of endurance auto racing, the cars coming into dawn looking as if they have been to war. The heartbreak and triumph of a getting the car to the end, surviving the carnage, the mechanics, fabricators, drivers all having done their jobs well, and massive amounts of luck and fortune helping it all along.

And that Porsche that won it's class? Without a rear window?? My Goodness!! And that Flying Lizard team... and Mike Rockenfeller.. that kid will be in F1 next year, you just watch. I was blown away. I didn't even know this series existed last year. POOR Tony. He said, I'll be back next year, we have a race to win! I'm HOOKED!