Trulli and Montoya - No Penalty (merged)

[Gt_R]

ok, my fault "STEWARDS". I'm gonna write it 100 times.

But anyway, i'm not calling for penalising JPM. That's not the point of the argument, and for the incident alone, doesn't warrant it.

The thing is that fighting for position meant that irregardless of how slow Trulli is, he has the rights to defend himself, and it's JPM's job to find a way around.

And thankfully, in JPM, we have somebody who tries.

However, while he pulled a nice move on a struggling MS, his move on Trulli was actually pretty poorly judged, and it cost Jarno in the process.

It's an incident. Such things happen frequently with fast cars on narrow tracks. And we shouldn't complain now that we have action. But it's clear who's the more enthusiastic one, and probably FIA should, WITHOUT penalties, just give him a kind and nice reminder.

I think it's fair enough, isnt it?

[climb]

What makes me sick is thatJPM causes many an accident like this and always keep going, while his "victims" normally are put out.

[Tweed]

I agree with Gt_R, Montoya was totally within his rights to try the move, as was Trulli to defend it, but it was a bit messy from the outside, you knew it would end in tears.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Remember that JPM managed the eact same move on Michael earlier in the race, havign been stuck behind him for less time. Trulli should've realised Montoya would have a go at a corner that was purposely redesigned for overtaking.

Allowing Montoya enough room didn't mean Trulli was guaranteed to lose the place - Trulli's car accelerated better, and so would've had a chance of out-dragging him to La Source, especially as Jarno would've probably had the racing line.

Racing incident, and it'd be a disgrace if a penalty was applied.

Exactly. In fact I think Trulli knew JPM was there but closed door anyway because he felt he could, imo ... although no penalty should be imposed, the FIA, if they feel they must do something, should slap Trulli gently on wrist verbally and let's move on.

[ttc]

Let me get this straight.

It seems to me that some folks here advocate that if you have a situation where a faster car is following a slower car, racing for position, the leading, slower car is required to "give room" so as to facilitate "overtaking" by the faster car behind.

Did I get that right?

There I must disagree. As I've sad many times before, I think that a driver in front must leave enough room for 1 car width + 1 inch. I know the rules say different, but still...

Because Montoya was faster??? The putpose of racing is that the fastest driver win, or am I missing something??

[Hugh Jarce]

I'd put JPM more at fault - to me it was one of those one's that once into it, it was obvious it wasn't going to come off and JPM should probably have yielded.

I wonder whether, knowing the lack of points Williams have, and the fact that he's off - he couldn't give a fig whether he got through or chewed the car up.

Get through = glory.
Chew up = time for a bath and a cuppa.

Win, win for JPM.

[Tweed]

Doesn't matter if you're 2-3 seconds a lap slower than the following car, you still have the right to defend as much as you can. Overtaking should never be 'facilitated' by another car.

[hgmonaro]

IMO the two manouvers were slightly different situations. MS had a lack of grip due to his tyres yet to get back up to working temp so was defending considerably and I think JPM (haven't checked the tape) got in a bit further so MS let him go. Couldn't have defended the posi if he wanted to. Trulli thought the corner was his so went for the apex but JPM was hoping he'd yield an kept in it when he wasn't quite there. He was already 99% on the grass so should have just cut the corner completely. As for Trulli giving him room, JPM would have run him off the outside of the track on the exit if he'd got the chance.

[climb]

Defending positions is a sacred right.
In another thread I'm talking today about Jarama 81, with Gilles difending his position for a whole race, and God, what a spectacle!
JPM's fans please take note and learn..

[Sultan]

Personally, I have no doubt that the move was ambitious & that there wasn't much room to play with, but by the time they were into the middle of the chicane, JPM's front wheels were well within the peripheral vision of Trulli, so, like I said, certainly a bit too ambitious but I don't think he should penalised...

[Kirk]

In this cast ttc (at least the way I saw it), JPM was alongside Trulli before he knew it and Trulli had a choice: close door and by doing so risk taking yourself out or leave room for an overtaking move that was inevitable and RACE with him. MS in the same situation chose the latter and in doing so displayed sound judgement although I'm sure he wasn't very pleased at the time, he went on to beat JPM and finish 2nd. Trulli should have done the same and hopefully realises he was lucky to remain in the race and learned a valuable lesson.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
I wonder whether, knowing the lack of points Williams have, and the fact that he's off - he couldn't give a fig whether he got through or chewed the car up.

Get through = glory.
Chew up = time for a bath and a cuppa.

This is too harsh. IMHO. It is clear that Montoya is the sort of driver that would go for that whether he was leaving Williams or not. Or whether he was in with the chance of a win or not (or even the title).

However, I am sure that the incident will satisfy both those who like to campaign hot headed JPM or Trulli's non-racer attitude.

If the situation were reversed...

[Mr V]

At Canada 1999, Eddie Irvine and DC had the same sort of collision, neither was punished and i think the same applies in this incident between JPM and Jarno, after all, do we want to see drivers attempt an overtake or not? JPM proved that it can be done by pulling the same move on Michael earlier on in the race.

[Kirk]

I agree Adam. JPM has established himself to be aggressive always, and Michael knows it. Trulli on the other hand has proven to be a bit too timid at times and the other drivers are aware of that and may tend to exploit it. Perhaps Trulli is trying to erase that reputation. Can't blame him for that I suppose.

[paddy]

I'm not a fan of JPM, but I'm glad he's there. At least he wants to race and has the skill and committment to pass people. This was a racing accident and there should be no penalty. Drivers can defend, but if there is no racing room you do not get racing. In this instance I feel that if Trulli had braved it out on the outside he would have held the position as his exit speed would have been greater. If oyu think back to races with overtaking in recent years guys who have left room ahve immediatelyn retaken a place because the overtaker has compromised his line.

[ljakse]

Originally posted by ttc
Let me get this straight.

It seems to me that some folks here advocate that if you have a situation where a faster car is following a slower car, racing for position, the leading, slower car is required to "give room" so as to facilitate "overtaking" by the faster car behind.

Did I get that right?

I gues you did - 'defending a position' IMHO constitutes of driver in front, when caught by another (obviously faster) car, doesn't give a chance to the guy behind. And when he does give the chance (not intentionaly), he can not take it back.
As Kirk pointed out - look at what Schumacher did - he let Montoya (faster at that moment) go past him, than raced him untill the end of the race, and eventually beat him.

[climb]

Easy to notice that at the moment of the race it was impossible to predict how would the race finish, moreover Trulli wasn't as aware as MS of his car's competitiveness, thus it was hard to hiom to let JPM pass and be confident to beat him.

[Gt_R]

2 situations
> when the overtaken driver gives way/room - JPM gave way to Massa at that move into E.R, because Massa is clearly side by side

> when the overtaking driver give room - JPM couldn't get it into the chicane, and wasn't side by side into the 2nd part of the chicane. He should have conceded and try again later.

It's the extent of who has the advantage of the corner or track gets to dictate the position. The one who's not getting the advantage of the corner/track should have conceded.

[Gt_R]

of course, that's my opinion. and giving way, after you sir, to a faster car isn't my idea of racing.

[Knowlesy]

The way everyone is going on you'd think JPM was the kind of guy to try and knock people off on purpose for his own benefit.

[Gt_R]

haha..that's bringing it out of context

nobody said, at least i don't think so, that he done it on purpose.

[paddy]

The argument isn't about letting people through it's about racing. Blocking is not racing. What MS did to Alonso at Silverstone 2 years ago, putting him on the grass on Hanger Straight, is not defending a position it is blocking. Cars cannot suddenly dematerialise so there has to be give and take. Perhaps todays drivers don't get enough experience of close racing.

[Gt_R]

Trulli defending isn't blocking.
Montoya's move on Massa is blocking.

And i'm sure Trulli, Montoya are more than experienced enough

But it's NOT intentional. It's jus over-enthusiasm plus a dose of disregard.

[Adam43]

I saw nothing wrong with what Massa did when Montoya came out of the pits. Montoya tried to muscle past (he really needed to get past), but backed out of it when it wasn't on. Massa kept his line forcefully. Good stuff for position.

Ulimately Montoya lost out to Michael because of this, he didn't have chance to make his new tyres count and was slowed by the pace of the Sauber.

[F40_LM]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Trulli was asleep?

I don't think so. Jarno rightly has that position and had pretty much defended his position that JPM ought to have conceded and try again next time. Instead he jus keeps his foot on the trottle and expects to be given room.

It's a racing incident. But i get tired of people saying that "room" should be given to Montoya, when he isn't even in a strong enough position to warrant it. Montoya should heed his own advice, that position are not given.

actually Jarno didn't do a good job of defending and was caught off the racing line before he dived into the corner, and that gave Montoya enough time to sneak his nose(albeit 2 wheels on the grass)next to Jarno going into the turn. Jarno simply closed the door a little too late - he should have known better with somone like Juan on his tail!

it's hard to judge but I'd say 50-50 chance of making it, and that's why Montoya took it. Sato would probably take it with 40-60

Alls' fair