Safety Challenge

[ss_collins]

midgetman this thread is to generate improvement in rally and stock car safety and is part of a larger project to do the same. The sport can always be made safer without it losing anything...

but we felt it was a long time since the general motorsporting public had a chance to voice thier ideas... hence this thread.

[HiRich]

midgetman,
sort of off-topic, but worth discussing. I have some sympathy with that view (being in historic racing). But the 'correct' process for safety is much better defined and proven than many people realise. SS is only asking for interesting ideas. Even if we came up with a peach of an idea, it still needs to be researched, developed and, most importantly, subjected to a cost-benefit analysis.

Using my (our) mobile phone idea, let's estimate that 5 lives will be saved by this over the next ten years, worth £1m each. So the benefit is £5m in ten years. If we have an average of 5,000 cars each season over that decade, that means we have a budget of £200 per car over 10 years for it to be worth doing. Ain't going to happen, is it? If we could do it for £50, then it might be realistic. Cost-benefit is brutal but (provided it is done professionally and independently) the only serious option.

Safety isn't black & white, it's shades of grey. Who would seriously argue against helmets, belts, roll hoops/cages, and fire extinguishers? Who's to say there isn't an equally important development, or a cheap no-brainer idea still out there?

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by HiRich

Who would seriously argue against helmets, belts, roll hoops/cages, and fire extinguishers?

Sorry to continue off topic, but it is related...

Unfortunately, when it comes to belts, roll hoops and cages, many people who drive Historic Sportscars seem to think that modern safety don't apply to them. I would be interested to know if these drivers are still allowed to race in such an unsafe way because there are so few of them that its not a "cost benefit" to save their lives, or if they just have enough influence over the authorities to insist modern rules don't apply to them.

Sorry, that was just a moan because I once had trouble getting my 50mm tube 6-pint roll cage through scrutineering becase of a small pin hole in one weld, only to see the next "historic" car with no hoop or belts of any sort be pronounced "safe"!!

Anyway, my safety suggestion is to mandate that all cars have to comply with the SAME set of safety rules for a given level of racing (ie, Club, National, International etc, basically defining a budget for safety equipment)

[flagwaver]

dtype 38 Your problem with the scrutineers is rather like taking your car for an MOT, if you car is of an age that it requires a rear fog light then it must be in working order.

This highlights another problem, it is not straight forward to fit a roll cage to modern requirements in a historic car. (you can not fit a new roll cage to a car that does not meet the latest requirements)

[Cameron Winton]

HiRich's idea has already been done. last yr, the Tour Of Mull required ever car to carry a vodaphone network mobile as it covers the island best. It even provides better coverage than the usual RAYNET because of the landscape (ie lots of mountains).
In general, simply having ideas is not good enough. Like all forms of safety, motorsport safety is based on risk. It is prohibitively expensive and unrealistic to cover all eventualities. So the ideas should focus on what occurs most often or what is most likely to cause damage to the human or humans inside the car.

[dtype38]

Flagwaver... I completely agree that that is the current situation. That's exactly what happens... doesn't make it right though.

Why should some people be allowed to expose themselves to dramatically more danger than others in exactly the same sport on the same track, just because of the year their car was manufactured? What I mean is that someone who choses to drive a historic car can chose to fit a roll bar and belts but doesn't have to. People who drive a modern car like myself (even though its a replica of a historic car) don't have the choice. If the latter is becasue it's been deemed by someone that I must have them for safety reasons, why does that apply to a replica D-type Jag but not a real D-type Jaguar?

OK, so no one would want to deface a multi-million pound genuine D-type with a roll cage, which is fine. But, IMHO, if thats the case it should be left in a museum and has no place on a race track. And yes, it would be sad not to see old cars doing battle on the track, but it was the very deaths and injuries that they caused that lead us to the safety equipment we have to use today!!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Some ideas...

. . .
Re the major impact in the Peugot, I think a major concern would be getting the driver and navigator out of the car without risking further neck/head injury. Fire crew usually have cutting gear to crop the top off a saloon, but would they be able to deal with a welded in roll cage? I wouldn't suggest weakening the roll cage, but maybe extra heavy cutting gear should be available at all tracks/ralley stages.

. . .

Rescue units all have equipment that will deal with anything found in a motorsport vehicle. The only question I have to ask myself is "How big do I want the bits to be?"

There might be benefit from checking that all venues/events for motorsport (and not just MSA licensed ones) have access to equivalent standards of equipment and crew.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

The improved warning for rallies might be said to be partly there. Rallitrack is an organisation used in some rallies in the UK. Each competitior is required to carry a hand held radio issued to them at scrutineering. If they stop they have to turn it on and report their location and situation.

While not perfect, it does substantially increase the chance of rapid knowledge of a significant problem. Sure, it's not foolproof (e.g. requires one crew member not to be incapacitated and the vehicle not to be submerged in a lake) but it is a sight better than nothing.

Problems: Costs each car about £20 and relies on volunteer marshals who can only be recruited from the limited pool available so if they are doing Rallitrack, there may be fewer people to do the other tasks.

Adding the following would needed to implement what was being talked about earlier in the thread:

Automatic operation
Automatic positional information

Just some thoughts.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Drivers who wore gloves.
Drivers who did not chew gum.
Drivers who kept their seat belts tight at all times
Drivers who did not go out on rallies having been told by their surgeon last week "The scan shows that you have two compressed vertebrae in your neck."

Regards

Jim

[richard_sykes]

Maybe an OK button on the dash with one of the above crash detection systems to tell teams/marshals the driver and co-driver are OK. This would reduce the urgency to get to the crash scene freeing up the medical people for another incident?

[flagwaver]

One of the problems with automatic/semiautomatic systems is stopping them from going off when a car has just had a heavy landing after a yump etc. This is one of the reasons that the ralitrack radios need to be switched on first.

dtype 38 you say your main concern is safety, but appear not to be aware of what emergency services are available to you as you race.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by flagwaver

dtype 38 you say your main concern is safety, but appear not to be aware of what emergency services are available to you as you race.

Errr.. an ambulance and some big trucks with flashing lights full of lots of stuff and some very nice people who know how to use it? Its a fair cop, I have no idea what they've got on board

I've only ever done circuit racing. I know the bits of the blue book that apply directly to me and my car reasonably well, but I guess I've never really looked outside my little bubble much Hopefully this doesn't disqualify me from suggesting ideas to improve safety. Sorry if some of them are already done, or just rubbish.

[chezza]

Dtype, next time your at a circuit, and you see the rescue unit sat there, ask them to tell you what sort of stuff they have on board. They will be more than willing to give you the low down...as long as you haven't woken them up!!

[Paul V]

What about an additive to oil to make it highly visible when dropped on the track?
There must be a dayglo/luminous product that can be engineered to work without affecting the engine.

[Andrew Palmer]

DType, to save waking a rescue unit crew. Check out your Red Book section S. It give information on all medical equipment required by the medical centre and doctors, plus the equipment and training for rescue crews. And if you really want to be worried check the equipment required at a Marshals Post.

[Andrew Palmer]

Instead of an automatic operation what about some thing like a "dead man handle" as used on trains. A device that constainly monitors car crews and if not responded to operates a beacon. As for location finding connect it to the trip recorder in the vehicle and distance can be measured from the start of a stage and reported back. Then rescue crew just have to drive that distance from the start and the car should be somewhere close by.

And for circuit racing how about timing loops covering ever square metre between the armco / tyres walls all linked in to computers. This information can then be used in many ways.

[Andrew Palmer]

Originally Posted by JimW

The only question I have to ask myself is "How big do I want the bits to be?"

Jim remind me is that bits of equipment carried in the unit or the size of bits we remove from the cars

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Andrew Palmer

DType, to save waking a rescue unit crew. Check out your Red Book section S. It give information on all medical equipment required by the medical centre and doctors, plus the equipment and training for rescue crews. And if you really want to be worried check the equipment required at a Marshals Post.

But do feel free to come and ask any of the units. We are always happy to show off the kit and explain how we operate.

Regards

Jim

[flagwaver]

Just don't park your car too near or we might just show you what we can do!
On the serious side though as Jim has said do come and have a look at a rescue unit you may be suprised what we do carry.

[HiRich]

So to re-summarise, for the rally scenario, there appears to be a lot of interest for a dedicated communications system from car to a central control.
At its most basic, this would simply be a mobile phone in the car, with a line opened before the crew enter the stage. Key benefits are:
- Cheap. Many crews will already have a phone. Those that don't can buy a cheap Pay-As-You-Go unit.
- Crews are in permanent contact. If concious, they can report (in detail) on an incident. Other crews passing can advise an incident and status. Control can offer advice to the affected crew and pass on information to other crews.
- Simple procedures. Car does not enter stage without an open line. Crew can call in "Stage Clear"
Weaknesses are:
- Maintaining contact may be difficult in remote or wooded areas.
- If both crew are incapacitated they cannot make contact (although with an open line, control will have at least some information)

Another key benefit is that the system is scalable:
- Data can be included in the comms link. Location, velocity, possibly in-vehicle telemetry (e.g. extinguisher triggered)
- An automated alert can be added, covering a situation where both crew are unable to respond. This can be protected by applying some form of manual interaction in-car (e.g. reset button, or dead man's handle)
- The possibility of control-to-car data. This might trigger the extinguisher. Perhaps it sounds a car alarm (audible beacon) to lead rescue teams (and helpful spectators) to a car in distress.
And being scalable, different packages can be included in different cars. Maybe higher level championships take higher packs, maybe it's left to the more safety concious crews to buy extra modules (let's not start an argument here, just accept that scalability is a good thing).

And as has been mentioned, such a system has been tried already. So there's a whole seam for SS to investigate here.

So perhaps let's we should split the replies from here on into:
- Other ideas/features/concerns with the communication system
- Other safety options

On the latter, I would suggest that there is scope for a higher FIA standard for the seat. Potential features would include:
- Standardised mounts, possible with some give in high-G conditions
- A head restraint system (something like a HANS device, integrated into the high back, but with more articulation)
- Deformable structures, particularly around the head and hips
- Limb restraint (legs & arms)
- Quick release and body restraint systems, so the body can be immobilised and the entire seat assembly removed.
- All, of course achieved without compromising accessibility, so if he's OK Drives can still hop out quickly.

[flagwaver]

Yep sounds OK to me. Lot of work would be needed (work = cost) but if where looking to move forward you have to start somewhere.

[dtype38]

JimW, Flagwaver, thanks for your tolerance and for the kind offers to show me your equipment . I'm racing at Donnington weekend after next and will definitely try and make time to visit the emergency crew

Re the comms system for rallying, would it be possible to have a simple GPS location transmitter/transponder in each car, like used for private security vans, with a tracker in Race Control? At its simplest it could just sound an alarm for any car on stage that has stopped moving and give its postion so that assistance can be sent.

[flagwaver]

The WRC uses a simular(GPS) system. it uses transponders located at various points on the stage to boost the system.
I stand to becorrected on this point, but I believe 3 years down the line they still have problems with the vehicle transponders being shaken to bits.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by HiRich

. . .

At its most basic, this would simply be a mobile phone in the car, with a line opened before the crew enter the stage. Key benefits are:
- Cheap. Many crews will already have a phone. Those that don't can buy a cheap Pay-As-You-Go unit.
- Crews are in permanent contact. If concious, they can report (in detail) on an incident. Other crews passing can advise an incident and status. Control can offer advice to the affected crew and pass on information to other crews.
. . .

Mobile phones can't be the basis since so many rally stages have no coverage. Unless we are going to pay for relevant areas to be covered either temporarily or Permanently. Or go for satellite mobile phones (trees?, ravines?)

I suspect that in practice some conventional radio system might be the techniocal answer. What about TETRA? (the system now coming in to give (mainly) the police full coverage. I know that there are opportunities for other services to be considered as users.

Regards

Jim