Injury at Silverstone

[simon drabble]

you need to beat Nick up not me! I just see the invoices ;-)
was that you giving a most spectatular demonstration in your E Type at Brands cpl Fridays ago? we were letting Brendan Roberts, the third driver, have a test session and was most impressed by the sight of your E Type coming round Paddock Hill Bend sideways!

[jminsh]

Twas Jon not me bloody loon !!

[simon drabble]

Nick thought it was - said he always drives like that! Well he defied conventional wisdom that says sideways driving sacrifices time as he was b loody quick as well! doesnt bode well for my team at Spa! I presume you do the 6 Hour as well?

[jminsh]

Yeah i get the last stint as i seem to be the one that can get a worn out unbraked 3 speed car to the finish.!!

[simon drabble]

hahahah yup James has the same graveyard shift! I am going first and Brendan second. I gather that the Crossle might not qualify this year as it was made after the cut off...

[Peter Mallett]

Bit off topic here guys.

[jminsh]

Sorry boss . I spose it's getting close to needing a new Spa 6 hour thread starting only 7 weeks away now yippee.

[Peter Mallett]

Here, you mean?

[Aysedasi]

But good fun reading though Peter........the enthusiasm is obvious for all to see!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Trying to incorporate all the safety features of more modern machinery into historics would kill it, at a stroke.

Ok, so back to topic. My earlier one liner looks a bit dismissive but it was not intended to diminish the safety issues in motor racing as anyone who has read my postings on safety on the F1 forum will know.

The point is that successive generations of racing cars have obviously had the safety features built in to them that were available and/or required at the time of their construction. As has been made clear by a number of posters here, who know far more than I on this subject, to endeavour to effectively 'backdate' all the modern safety requirements into these cars would be, in many cases, impossible, and in some, probably create new hazards. I've not (sadly) driven any of the old open sports racing cars but some were built with (deliberately, or not) a degree of chassis flex in them, for example. Surely the handling characteristics of these cars, presumably one of the reasons for their purchase, could be quite dramatically altered by the stiffening effect of a roll cage. Many of the relatively affluent (as many surely must be) owners/drivers of these cars would be reluctant to want to do this, as well as the adverse visual effect it would have upon their pride and joy.

Historic racing has an increasing following and there are some superb meetings now taking place. I guess it maybe one of the biggest growth areas in motorsport at the moment. The imposition of too many safety regulatons and the technical difficulty, in some cases, of their application, will drive many of these cars off the tracks, to the frustration of owners, competitors and spectators alike, due to cost, loss of originality and aesthetics. Whilst every effort should be made to ensure the safety of competitors in an inherently dangerous sport (pastime might be a better word for historic racing) these have to be reasonably and practically applied giving due regard to the circumstances. As has been stated earlier on this thread, the owner and driver have a certain amount of choice at what level to pitch the degree of safety they wish to incorporate into their machinery. If you take away that choice, you risk taking away the cars. Then no-one wins (literally!)

[TimD]

Agree entirely with what you say, John. For my money, I'm still grateful that the custodians of these cars choose to race them at all, despite the occasional accident. Having witnessed Sunday's accident from almost exactly the same vantage point as Motorsport News' photographer, I am pathetically relieved that David Laing is in a position to mull over his car's rebuild at all. It was a revolting accident, and one which will stay with me for a long, long time.

One thing which I think ought to be made clear about David is that while he was a newcomer to the BRDC series, he was scarcely a novice, as could be inferred from the press reporting. Heh has competed for many years in Aston Martins, both DB2/4 and pre-war Le Mans types, so it is not as though he is unfamiliar with the era of cars. The HRG, I seem to recall from talking in the paddock at Le Mans, has only recently been restored. A real shame, because it looked a splendid job. The important thing though is that David is safe and on the mend.

[Bishop Ranter]

The comments regarding the imposition of roll hoops/cages into historic cars are apposite. To place rigid structures into early cars, notably pre-war cars, generally had a detrimental effect on these cars, rendering the vehicles less safe than if left alone. I race pre-war cars and from a safety perspective I would not want to impose into the cars, modern safety structures. If forced to do so I would withdraw from competition. To wear a harness in a car without a hoop is foolhardy. As had been noted it is best to be thrown clear.

I do, however, run a 1960s' single seater equipped with harness and roll hoop. With my Cooper I feel comfortable because the car originally featured a hoop, albeit lower than the current protection. My friend's father was tragically killed in period and a contributory factor in his death was the issue of harnesses which are today so much better than they were during the 1960s.

In terms of aesthetics, whereas pre-war cars and early post-war cars are ruined by cages/hoops, later cars do not really suffer in terms of appearance, if the safety device is professionally manufactured and installed. And here's an interesting point returning back to the safety angle...is the hoop manufactured from materials fit for purpose and is it designed and installed to meet this purpose? I have heard of hoops manufactured from sub-standard materials. And how many installations are conducted by professional engineers who genuinely understand structures? If you have a hoop/cage fitted you need an assurance that it functions.

What worries me is that the publication of such images will be ammunition for the over-zealous Blairite nannies to impinge upon our choice to engage in a sport (or past-time) that gives so much pleasure.

Above and beyond these comments I wish David Laing a full and speedy recovery.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by Red Legs

I gather the car was fitted with a roll bar and it broke. This may highlight the point of fitting roll bars to cars that were not designed to have one.

Not true, the car definitely wasn't fitted with a roll hoop.

One thing I would say, is that David's full face helmet stood up extremely well, I wouldn't like to speculate on the damage that would have been done if he'd been wearing an open face.

Like Tim (who also had the misfortune to see the accident I believe), I'm very relieved David appears to be on the mend.

[simon drabble]

Full face helmits seem such an obvious thing to wear. At the end of the day its a personal thing but I will always have a roll hoop as it gives me a sens of security if nothing else. In period there where many fatalities - thankfully now in historics that is a rare thing.
I also with David Laing a speedy recovery. I read the Motoring News article and am interested that TimD picked up on the tone of it as well - it made him seem a beginner who was completely off the pace. I dont know him and or his experience but having raced in that series I can tell you that there is a large disparity between the front running Listers/Coooper Monaco's etc and the tail enders in much older cars. This is not normally a problem. Not having been there I cant comment on what happened this time

[Red Legs]

What I had heard on the day was obviously not correct about the car having a roll bar. Having raced a vintage car not fitted with one for many years- if this sort of accident should happen you hope you get thrown clear. You should consider the risks before getting behind the wheel.
Does anyone know if it was mechanical failure? Copse must be much safer for our type of cars now than when it was full of kity litter.
Wishing David a speedy recovery.

[Peter Mallett]

On a slightly different tack but on topic, we took our newly re commissioned MGB down to France last week. I was driving and thinking that this is a 40 year old car, we've got static but brand new seatbelts, but no roof structure so what if................ ?

Still drove it at traffic speeds but I was taking a bit of care.

Then yesterday there was a report on Yahoo about a family of five killed in the states because a Volvo ran the lights and crashed into their newly restored 1930's Deusenberg.

In some US states you can't even drive an old (or vintage as they call it) car unless its to a special event. Its because you can't apply new rules to old structures.

So BR has a good point. Let's not do the safety stuff, let's allow the owners and drivers to make the choice and hopefully provide us with the entertainment that modern motorsport has lost.

Get well soon David.

[TimD]

Welcome to the forum Red Legs. I have to say I've been thinking hard about the gravel since the weekend. On the whole I would agree that tarmac is probably safer in an unbelted open car as you are less likely to roll. However, if you do turn over, the gravel can then become a blessing. At Copse I've seen Colin Cowdrey (not the cricketer) walk away from under his Cooper Bristol probably as a direct result of having had soft(er) gravel to land on when a wheel came off. I was quite convinced I'd seen the end of Trevor Swete at Mallory when he turned the Invicta over, but again the gravel's innate "give" probably saved him, thank God.

I think that when the accident happens, there are so many variables, you just have to develop a certain optimism that the cards will fall in your favour.

[COLIN STUBBS]

suppose its all ok as long as people are prepared to race old cars with minimum safety devices and people are also prepared to scrape em up off the track its fine. true they would look awful with full roll cages but in this day and age.....certainly looked as if the helmet may have saved him. please dont go to the extreme and make everyone wear **** pot helmets to make it look good. wish him a speedy recovery.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by TimD

The important thing though is that David is safe and on the mend.

Yes, Tim, in my enthusiasm to make my point, I overlooked to express the most important sentiment of all. As Peter and others have said - get well soon, David.

[zefarelly]

there are a lot of older cars out there racing which I don't think wou;ld benefit from roll hoops, theyre so fragile and finely balanced theres nothing of substance to mount to.

its easier for us in tin tops in that respect. I make the car faster and more reliable, the wifes the safety scrutineer, we're not down to homologated weight, but we do carry 40kg of 6 point roll cage with door bars etc. I feel safe enough to try driving fast, not that you'd believe it looking at some of my lap times

[Robin_D]

I was fast on scene at the incident and also saw the video today (I would be interested in seeing pictures if anybody has links) it is just a big mother of a slide and the car's high centre of gravity that caused it to roll.

Wishing you a very speedy recovery David. Hope to see you soon.

[dereklola]

Still talking about safety aspects or lack of them on vintage/historic/old race cars take a look at the pictures on this relatively modern [1971] car. It amazes me that anyone could take such a cavalier attitude to safety after doing such a nice renovation.
http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/cr...24365152pp.htm

[TimD]

Sorry Derek, not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at. That Crossle has a hearty roll hoop, six-point harness, extinguisher bottle...

If you're concerned about the minimal frame under the bodywork, I've seen more recent FFord and FVee designs with a lot less tubing than that!

[PaulSands]

I think the problem is the additional welded on roll hoop extension that would probably stand a chance of snapping right off

[dereklola]

1 - the roll bar extension on top done without raising the support leg. In anything but a simple neat rollover, which formula cars in contrast to tin tops rarely do, it would likely bend or break off. Look at the height of the driver to see why that is important.

2 - narrow shoulder belts - why would anyone choose 2" when 3" are readily available?

3 - shoulder belt anchorages too wide apart and way too low for the height of the driver. Would likely come off one shoulder in any but a straight 'front in' impact - and in a front impact would compress vertibrae.

4 - it may be a 6-point seat belt but the crotch straps are fed through what looks like one small hole thus making it impossible for them to restrain the thighs, and thus the whole body, properly in a frontal impact.

5 - it may be a nice leather covered seat but who in his right mind would continue using what looks as if it is probably an original fibreglass shell?

Is this sort of prep typical in UK vintage racing?