A gem of wisdom from Ross Brawn !

[grandprixdiary]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

I agree, Toyota spend more money than Ferrari so the quote is not as funny to the fully informed members of this forum.

The fact that Ross can say what he did is definately funny.....

Rob

[Marbot]

The fact that he can say that whilst Bridgestone are currently paying for this months testing is even funnier.

[Kicking-back]

In the Middle East too, so hardly just out of the factory and pounding round Fiorano

[BootsOntheSide]

What use would testing in Italy in freezing November be for working out whether tyres and engines will be durable in hot F1 races? Can anyone actually answer the question as to whether Ferrari were the biggest-spending team in any of those 5 title-winning seasons? We can ignore Toyota, as they were starting from scratch and had to spend a lot mroe just to get facilities capable of building a car capable of qualifying.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

What use would testing in Italy in freezing November be for working out whether tyres and engines will be durable in hot F1 races?

Pop along to Barcelona then, like most teams will do, once testing resumes next week.

[grandprixdiary]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

What use would testing in Italy in freezing November be for working out whether tyres and engines will be durable in hot F1 races? Can anyone actually answer the question as to whether Ferrari were the biggest-spending team in any of those 5 title-winning seasons? We can ignore Toyota, as they were starting from scratch and had to spend a lot mroe just to get facilities capable of building a car capable of qualifying.

I don't think anybody can answer that one. It was widely reported in reputable mags like Autosport /F1 Racing and so on that Ferrari were spending at the very least a quarter more than McLaren who were second down and maybe twice as much as the likes of Williams and Renault. But, they are good at spreading the costs. For years Shell paid Schueys wages (again - this is impossible to substantiate, its an oft repeated claim in reputable places) and Bridgestone pick up the tab for the huge testing bill.

Rob

[Smurfer]

So, this would be the same Ross Brawn of Ferrari, who for the last decade have had a budget that would have been enough to buy a small African nation

I don't think you can buy countries. Did I miss the point?

[Dutton]

I think he was suggesting their budgets out-stripping GPD or something. Anyway, it is just a turn of phrase to emphasise the vastness of the thing being referred to.

With regards Ferrari the big-spender thing, it should be remembered that Ferrari had teh costs of sorting out their own engines. If the likes of Mclaren didn't have their engine manufacturers paying for that stuff then you would see their expenditure increase.

Those who cite Bridgestone paying for testing, and Shell paying for Michael's salary bring up a good point: Ferrari NOT spending, but being able to get others to shoulder the costs. I would like to see the team that would turn down the offer of things being paid for them.

[Gt_R]

Precisely. People rather criticise Ferrari's spending money rather than evaluate how they spend it and how they finance their operations.

A 2nd Williams windtunnel is not criticised.
Spending wads of money on a new factory by Mclaren is considered sound investment.

But Ferrari spendings is put down and criticised?

The fact that Ferrari had placed priority for Technical Sponsors (ie Shell, BS) rather than pure cash sponsors shows their orientation towards maximising technical cooperation. And as mentioned, often people criticise Ferrari for spending more than Williams and Mclaren while ignoring the engine developement that Ferrari have to bear.

[Gt_R]

I think what is interesting is that if we are to rank the teams since the start of 2000 to 2005, in terms of points-per-dollar-spent, Ferrari would have been in the top 3. Mclaren and Williams and Toyota would have ranked far less down.

[John Turner]

Yes, but this really isn't about Ferrari spending, although, let's face it, they spent what they had to, money no object, to build an incredible team of personnel around them. Nor is it about criticising them. This is about Ross Braun's comment, which, unless said 'tongue in cheek' was crass, hypocritical and ultimately very funny. Unbelievable for an intelligent man! Presumably, he thinks that Ferrari's glasshouse has much thicker glass than RBR's!

[joe rossi]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Precisely. People rather criticise Ferrari's spending money rather than evaluate how they spend it and how they finance their operations.

A 2nd Williams windtunnel is not criticised.


But Ferrari spendings is put down and criticised?

Maybe if Williams owned two test tracks on their doorstep they wouldn't have spent the money on the second windtunnel.

[Gt_R]

Precisely. Since nobody complained about all the investments of the other teams, why are same people criticising Ferrari's investments?

It is interesting. Williams chose the windtunnel route, Ferrari the test-tracks, and Mclaren a new state-of-arts factory. Different teams can choose to do what they deem is best.

Ferrari had a huge budget, but it's not as though they are spending twice of Mclaren, and Toyota has a bigger budget. Didn't Alex Fergurson and Arsene Wenger both warn Chealsea "we shouldn't let EPL be won with money" earlier?

Take for example Minardi. They complain about the big bucks because they don't have it. Reverse the situation around give them the biggest budget..and it's unlikely Stoddart will go "ooh..let's cut spending".

[Gt_R]

Ross Brawn echo the thoughts of every other fans/team owners and it's hypocritical?

what you expect Ross Brawn to do? Tell Luca to reject and cap their annual budget?

For the past 2-3 years, Ross has already on a few occasional times came out to hint that the figures reported in magazines of Ferrari's budget is inaccurate and too optimistic. But sure, the magazines must have pretty good accountants to manage the finances of 10 teams.

It isn't easy for Ferrari when part of their budget goes to purchase huge quantities of premium-bananas for Ross.

[Super Tourer]

On the wind tunnel v testing point I think you have to look at Ferrari's culture to see why they test so much. For the last few decades they have been used to coming up with new parts and literally wheeling the car down to the test track and trying them, something that other teams have never really done.

RB has also mentioned in the past that there is often a clear difference between wind tunnel numbers and the result on the track, which is why they prefer to test so much and it's worth saying that in the last few years, McLaren and Williams have spent a lot of time and money chasing aero numbers and designs that didn't repeat the wind tunnel performance on the track.

Having said all this the test ban and running during the previously agreed 'limited' periods is a thorny issue, but playing devils advocate is actually testing during the testing ban not essentially the same as running two wind tunnels 24/7 and set up rigs 24/7 plus race simulators in the same period - it's all development and money burning - the very thing that a testing ban is supposed to be reducing.

Perhaps the FIA could equate wind tunnel days to test days and essentially call them 'extra development' days and put a limit on those per year - then a team could choose whether to spend them on more wind tunnel hours or track time?

People will say it's hard to police, but there are only 10 teams and surely the FIA can rustle up 10 people to keep an eye on the teams during limited or 'banned' periods?

[Inigo Montoya]

An alternative, but not popular in this forum, approach is to not limit testing or budgets in F1, let the big boys slug it out, and send (if necessary) the smaller teams to more appropriate formulas. But I guess this is getting off topic.

As for Ross's comments, I think they were tongue-in-cheek, as he is always having to deal with these "Ferrari win because they are rich" types of comments.

[grandprixdiary]

Originally Posted by Smurfer

I don't think you can buy countries. Did I miss the point?

Yes

[Super Tourer]

Ferrari also know that they are not in a position to bankroll F1 unlike huge the conglomerates Toyota and Honda can.

I think it's key that Ferrari immediately signed with Bernie's 'side' to collect an alleged large golden hello and a guaranteed sum in fees. You don't see Ferrari buddying up with the other car makers, as clearly (financially) they are in another league without the comfort of Fiat being able to bankroll them. Ferrari are in fact almost entirely dependent on outside sponsorship.

[Gt_R]

Part of the reason why i rather listen to the likes of Luca, Brawn, Todt, etc who are actually working hard and making the whole Ferrari F1 operation work, than to brush them left and right with unjustified and exaggerated criticisms like the armchair critics =) it's too easy to laugh off at the likes of Brawn, Todt, Schumacher from the outside.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

Ferrari are in fact almost entirely dependent on outside sponsorship.

and merchandising revenue that the ferrari brand generates. unless this money is just kicked up to FIAT. i think they can afford it.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns15931.html

with $700 mil a year thats enough to run 2 F1 teams.

[joe rossi]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Precisely. Since nobody complained about all the investments of the other teams, why are same people criticising Ferrari's investments?

I thought the point wasn't that Ferrari were being criticised for spending a fortune, it was the point that Ross Brawn was criticising Red Bull for doing exactly the same thing!

[John Turner]

Exactly right, Joe; what I attempted to say a few posts back, in fact!

[Gt_R]

Quote:"Reacting to the news that the fizzy pop team from Milton Keynes had lured Adrian Newey to join them, Brawn had this to say:

‘We’ve got to be careful that we don’t end up with the team who spend the most money being the team who win everything’ "

Even if we allow double dose of generousity and take that the thread-starter, and the media, had captured the quote without taking it out of context.

Please highlight which part in specifics is "criticising Red Bull"?

*scratch my head*

And please, please enlighten me. Because between 2000 and 2004, many critics were doing just that criticising in much harsher terms.

[ASCII Man]

That isn't a criticism specifically aimed at Red Bull, but more of a statement made that he wouldn't want the team wich spends the most to win everything, which is quite hypocritical of him to say so after enjoying the luxury he had for all those years.

He didn't have a problem with it back then, so why should he now?

[joe rossi]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Quote:"Reacting to the news that the fizzy pop team from Milton Keynes had lured Adrian Newey to join them, Brawn had this to say:

‘We’ve got to be careful that we don’t end up with the team who spend the most money being the team who win everything’ "

Even if we allow double dose of generousity and take that the thread-starter, and the media, had captured the quote without taking it out of context.

Please highlight which part in specifics is "criticising Red Bull"?

*scratch my head*

And please, please enlighten me. Because between 2000 and 2004, many critics were doing just that criticising in much harsher terms.

Ok, it's not an impicit criticism of Red Bull, but as the quote says "Reacting to the news that Red Bull..blah blah", Ross then goes on to dig about big budgets, leading us all to the conclusion that he is a bit of a hippocrite, if he has been quoted correctly.

Maybe Ferrari put in an offer for Newey and were unsuccessful? maybe there is an element of sour grapes in there as well.

There was alot of criticism in 2003/4 levelled at Ferrari, for a whole host of reasons, much of it deserved in my opinion. That doesn't mean that Ross isn't being hippocritical now though,does it?

I don't remember Ron or Frank moaning that the only reason Ferrari were winning was because they had a bigger cash pot (although I wouldn't put it past them). The criticism as I recall was more about unsporting "team tactics", the tyre war and testing/FIA favouritism.