New Zytek details revealed

[canam]

I can't remember the last time that a normally-aspirated V8 took overall honours in the 'Big Race'. Apart from torque, the very nature of these modern V8s leads them to vibrate much more than the V10s. This vibration often creates other problems with the car during long races.

The more I look at the splitters, the more it seems to have come from the same 'home'. Do you think Creation and Zytek collaborated on parts of the Hybrid to save costs? They clearly went their own ways on the rear!

[Aerodynamic]

From what I have heard from people at Magny the Zytek is running very well. About 1 sec slower than Minass in the Creation (with Neilsen driving). Really good news for the future (Neilsen isnt even that quick these days, put someone like Herbert/Shimoda in and you will instantly have that second back), looks like Zytek are going to have a very strong package this year.

Oh and by the way - the tires are wider, its part of the package that will be carried over onto the 07s.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Aerodynamic

From what I have heard from people at Magny the Zytek is running very well. About 1 sec slower than Minass in the Creation (with Neilsen driving). Really good news for the future (Neilsen isnt even that quick these days, put someone like Herbert/Shimoda in and you will instantly have that second back), looks like Zytek are going to have a very strong package this year.

Is Casper Elgaard at the test? He should be quick!

[canam]

Any times given for the test.. If it is that close, Spa could be an interesting race. Are the Courages close as well.

Can you imagine five cars challenging for overall victory...for a full six hours (assuming they bring enough fuel!).

[knighty]

sorry but I just cant seea 4 litre V8 hanging together for 24 hours.....Judd have been there done that, the smaller the engine capacity, the more it needs to be revved to make competitive power.......so therefore......the bigger the engine capacity, the less it needs to be revved to make good peak power.....I bet Zytek are revving the nuts out of that 4.0 V8 to make competitive power - best of luck to them though, always nice to see another car/engine about......for Judd - going to from 4 to 5 litres was the probably the best thing Judd ever did, as it knocked about 2 or 3000rpm off their peak rpm limit, as their reliability record at 24hr races was terrible, sporadic success I know, like winning Daytona 24hrs, but I always remember the 4.0 Judd V10s dropping like flies at LeMans - not good ......It would not surprise me if Judd were considering a 5.5 or 6 litre option to this engine, in order to reduce the revs further for better reliability - design allowing......but I'm thinking the V10 Judd is quite probably stretched to its limit, as I think its derived from an old 3.5 litre F1 design.......

[JAG]

Originally Posted by knighty

sorry but I just cant seea 4 litre V8 hanging together for 24 hours.....Judd have been there done that, the smaller the engine capacity, the more it needs to be revved to make competitive power.......so therefore......the bigger the engine capacity, the less it needs to be revved to make good peak power.....I bet Zytek are revving the nuts out of that 4.0 V8 to make competitive power - best of luck to them though, always nice to see another car/engine about......for Judd - going to from 4 to 5 litres was the probably the best thing Judd ever did, as it knocked about 2 or 3000rpm off their peak rpm limit, as their reliability record at 24hr races was terrible, sporadic success I know, like winning Daytona 24hrs, but I always remember the 4.0 Judd V10s dropping like flies at LeMans - not good ......It would not surprise me if Judd were considering a 5.5 or 6 litre option to this engine, in order to reduce the revs further for better reliability - design allowing......but I'm thinking the V10 Judd is quite probably stretched to its limit, as I think its derived from an old 3.5 litre F1 design.......

TBH, I never expected any of the V10 Judds to show the reliabilty they are.

I'm guessing increased competition in the LMP ranks, restrictor regs allowing engines to run less stressed than in the 3.5l/Turbo Group C days, and general development, any of the current P1 engines could eventually be bulletproof, including the Zytek V8.

[SALEEN S7R]

Personally I fully expect to see the Zytek 100% reliable, at least on the engine side of things. Why? Well because Zytek have vast experince of V8 engines from both their days when they had the exclusive contract for Int F3000 and more recently A1 GP, the F3000 engine being a 3.0ltr v8 and the A1 power plant a 3.4v8. Yes I know that the engine in the LMP is a differnt model but all the same, Zytek have a lot of experince of V8 engines and I think they might well suprise a few people come Le Mans.

[knighty]

hmm.....to my knowledge the old F3000 Zytec engine is actually a Judd design - the two companies are actually closley linked......and the 4.0 Litre engine was designed by an ex F1 Honda racing guy......yes I agree Zytec have lots of V8 engine experience - in 2 hour SPRINT RACES! - not in 24hr races......a complete different kettle of fish

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Personally I fully expect to see the Zytek 100% reliable, at least on the engine side of things. Why? Well because Zytek have vast experince of V8 engines from both their days when they had the exclusive contract for Int F3000 and more recently A1 GP, the F3000 engine being a 3.0ltr v8 and the A1 power plant a 3.4v8. Yes I know that the engine in the LMP is a differnt model but all the same, Zytek have a lot of experince of V8 engines and I think they might well suprise a few people come Le Mans.

F3000 and A1GP are single manufacturer series so these engines are not fully stressed.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by knighty

yes I agree Zytec have lots of V8 engine experience - in 2 hour SPRINT RACES! - not in 24hr races......a complete different kettle of fish

Not really, the engines produced 460bhp and went on for 3000 miles before the cars had a engine re-build. How many miles do the cars cover at Le Mans? Not much more at all than 3000 miles I think you will find. Yes the engines were spec but they were still very powerful and they still went 3000 miles before having a re-build. The same applies with A1, the engines cover around 3000 miles before having a re-build at the Zytek factory. The A1 car engines produce 520bhp - thats with a 3.4 n/a v8. A 4.0ltr should be able to produce signifcantly more power.

[dj choc ice]

ooooooooowwwwwweeeeeee!!!!,

that new zytek is a beauty, glad to see the original lines of the car have been retained much like the creation LMP so the real battle begins now that zytek have their new car, LET BATTLE COMMENCE, pescarolo hybrids your arses are mine lol

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

I see from this picture that there was a film crew present. Was this just a danish news team covering the shakedown or is there perhaps a documentary on the way (like Creation's last year)?

do i sense the new series of road to lemans being filmed remember the series with craetion autosportif and their progress towards lemans that was on in the UK in novemeber and december time? this time they may be tracking the progress of the new zytek team and their LMP1 rocket machine

[canam]

Zytek's 3.4 litre lump took a while to get right. When Creation ran it , they had numerous failures--as did Zytek at Le Mans. Last year, they got it right with the new spec but it was restricted ie lower revs producing say 480bhp.

IMO, the higher revs (for power) and the inherent vibrational problems of this type of V8 make it more vulnerable to failure than a V10 (which is as smooth as silk). In the end, it may not be the engine that goes. It is often some other problem produced by the vibration that breaks.

I go back to my earlier question: When was the last LM overall victor using a normally aspirated V8?

[WouterM]

Originally Posted by canam

I go back to my earlier question: When was the last LM overall victor using a normally aspirated V8?

1975 ?

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

The Zytek still looks pretty in hybrid form, unlike the Creation.

To be honest I (still) prefer the Creation over the Zytek. Especially the rear bodywork is prettier (better curves).

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by canam

I go back to my earlier question: When was the last LM overall victor using a normally aspirated V8?

1980, Rondeau Ford (DFV).

[gwyllion]

Infoscourse.org has an interview with Trevor Foster: http://www.infoscourse.org/article.php?sid=1984

Zytek is indeed running bigger wheels (contrary to Creation). They have added power steering and bigger brakes (necessary because the increased weight). The gearbox essentially is the same (a bit reinforced) with their own paddle shift design (used in A1 GP).

They will not have the time to do a 24 hour simulation before Le Mans. Spa is coming fast. And they will not build a second chassis because they did not get an invitation.

After Le Mans they plan to race in ALMS instead of LMS. They missed Istanbul so don't have any chance in the LMS championship and the replacement for Monza is still unclear. Commercially it is better to race in ALMS than 2 European LMS races. Johnny Herbert will drive for sure and Hayanari Shimoda not because he is racing Formula Renault 3.5.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Not really, the engines produced 460bhp and went on for 3000 miles before the cars had a engine re-build. How many miles do the cars cover at Le Mans? Not much more at all than 3000 miles I think you will find. Yes the engines were spec but they were still very powerful and they still went 3000 miles before having a re-build. The same applies with A1, the engines cover around 3000 miles before having a re-build at the Zytek factory. The A1 car engines produce 520bhp - thats with a 3.4 n/a v8. A 4.0ltr should be able to produce signifcantly more power.

To be compettitive at Le-mans you need well over 600Bhp, to get that out of a 4.0 V8 they will need to rev it in the region of 10,000 rpm......if they need to cut the revs down for the race they just wont be competitive......the 5.0 V10's will be steaming past them........I will bet Zytec can qualify really well on full revs.......but for the race they will gradually fall back........as I said before I would like to see them do well, but I just dont believe the engine will hang together, if it does finish the 24 hours they will be nowhere as the revs will be turned right down......they will not be compettitive with 100bhp less on the long straights........I fully expect the 5.0 V10 creation and Pescarolos to pee all over them, not to mention the R10 steamroller.


so between F3000 and A1 races they dont change the oil or oil filters and air filters - I bet they do......it all ads up.......

[gwyllion]

As a comparison:

• Judd GV4: over 600 bhp @ 10250 rpm and 355 lbft @ 8500 rpm (with 48 mm intake restrictor)
• Judd GV5: over 600 bhp @ 7800 rpm and 445 lbft @ 8500 rpm (with 2 x 32,7mm intake restrictor)

(taken from http://www.engdev.com)

That is 2000 rpm less.

Mugen also goes from 4.0 V8 to 4.5 V8 this year with the factory Courage team.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by knighty

To be compettitive at Le-mans you need well over 600Bhp, to get that out of a 4.0 V8 they will need to rev it in the region of 10,000 rpm......if they need to cut the revs down for the race they just wont be competitive......the 5.0 V10's will be steaming past them........I will bet Zytec can qualify really well on full revs.......but for the race they will gradually fall back........as I said before I would like to see them do well, but I just dont believe the engine will hang together, if it does finish the 24 hours they will be nowhere as the revs will be turned right down......they will not be compettitive with 100bhp less on the long straights........I fully expect the 5.0 V10 creation and Pescarolos to pee all over them, not to mention the R10 steamroller.


so between F3000 and A1 races they dont change the oil or oil filters and air filters - I bet they do......it all ads up.......

Yes between F3000 races they probably do change the oil and oil filters, but these are relativly quick jobs and can be carried out very quickly through the course of a pitstop in a 24 hour race. Do you really beleive that the other LMP's wont be topping up their oil throughout the 24hrs this year? I bet that a lot of them will be, if not all. Also, the rev range you mentioned before shoudnt really be a issue, the old Zytek 3.0ltr V8 that ran in the F3000 cars produced 460bhp and was revving to 9000rpm and as I stated earlier the engines were only re built after every 2000 miles, before I said 3000 miles I know but I made a mistake, more details on the engine can be found at http://f3000.flagworld.com/en/info/2...pecs.spy#Zytec. Now, considering a 3.0ltr v8 can produce 460bhp 5 years ago ( the F3000 engine dates back to 2000 ) I think it likely that a 4.0ltr v8 could produce in excess of 600bhp.

[knighty]

OK so the increased revs wont be a problem you think......well I think they will......why?......because I design engines for a living......the unbalanced 2nd order horizontal (side-to-side) vibrations in a high revving V8 are absolutley horrendous.......it shakes the fillings out of the drivers teeth......I would be interested to know if they run a twin counter-rotating balancer system in an attempt to cancel out the vibrations - I will be surprised if they do, as they add quite some weight - anyone know?........

I'm sorry, but come the race the zytec will not be on the pace of the creations or Pescarolos......you need over 600Bhp and plenty of torque for pulling the required speeds down the main straights......the Zytec will have the power in qualifying.......but come the race they are gonna get slaughtered.... with low power and low torque......bearing in mind their current state of readiness, I'm mystified how they have even been given an entry by the ACO......they should just let the second creation in.......pulling a few fast laps in testing means nothing, especially when they have yet to prove they can go the full distance........

yes oil top-ups are part of endurance racing.......not oil changes.......the higher revving the engine - the worse the oil consumption - F1 engines are bad, the old 4.0 Judd V10's were bad too......I dont know for sure but I bet the oil consumption is a drastic improvement on the 5.0 Judds now its revving 2000 rpm less

I think we have flogged this one to death now, I'm not adding anymore comments untill after the 24hr race!.....time will tell......but good luck to all

[I love 04s]

Christ alive, talk about a pessimist.

Knighty you are WAY out of your depth here.

Firstly they have been given an AUTOMATIC entry due to their stellar performances last year - 3 race wins (Spa, N'ring, Leguna), pole at nearly every track + lap records and 2nd in the LMES . To say that Creation should have got the 2nd entry over their first is just ridiculous - they didnt win a race last year, and although I love the team, they are not as professional. Furthermore what have they done this year - a poor showing at Istanbul only.

To say the Zytek will get slaughtered in the race "au Mans" is not only unlikely but also a bit of an insult, anyone remember 2003? P3 on the grid and consistently the fastest car behind the Audis before the engine went - the only time the engine has really let the car down and it was early in the developement.

Dont be sorry for what you have said..........just engage brain before typing next time.

[Splendid Cat]

Originally Posted by I love 04s

, anyone remember 2003? P3 on the grid

Dont be sorry for what you have said..........just engage brain before typing next time.

2004 mate, not 2003. I remember it falling way short of expectation / hype in the race in 2004

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Splendid Cat

2004 mate, not 2003. I remember it falling way short of expectation / hype in the race in 2004

Agreed, hugely impressive in qualifying, hugely disappointing in the race.

But let's not forget Team Jota's excellent run last year. Qualified 9th and worked their way up to fifth for much of the race and that was with the 3.4 litre engine. They could have continued for the final hour but decided not to risk dumping oil all over the track, a responsible if heartbreaking decision. Is it not fair to assume therefore that a factory effort could have enjoyed similar success to Jota but lapping at a similar pace to the Audi's?

We're now a year further down the line and I see no reason to suggest that the Zytek won't be as reliable in 925kg hybrid form with a 4 litre V8 engine as it was last year for Jota with a 3.4 litre V8. The biggest question mark is surely the amount of time the team have had to prepare for Le Mans with a new package, there are always glitches to be ironed out!

However, I still believe the lazier more torquey characteristics of the 5 litre Judd units are better suited to the rigours of Le Mans. We'll see......

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

ooooooooowwwwwweeeeeee!!!!,

that new zytek is a beauty, glad to see the original lines of the car have been retained much like the creation LMP so the real battle begins now that zytek have their new car, LET BATTLE COMMENCE, pescarolo hybrids your arses are mine lol

The true test of whether the Creation or Zytek are potential Le Mans winners will be when they collide with a backmarker for the first time.

If they're built like a tank, as the Audi and Pescarolo seem to be, they'll be fine, if they crumble like the 675 cars, no chance.