FIA and Champcar

[JohnSSC]

They need the "help" in the sense that the FIA sets the industry standard if you will. The drivers need the help from the FIA as setting the standard allows their credentials to be measured against other drivers in different series. The FIA provides a sort of "yardstick" if you will.

If the drivers in the IRL or CC had no wish to race in say, F1 or LeMans, for example than I would agree with your statement that the FIA is not needed. The fact that they do and drivers who come here want their time in the seat to count for something makes the FIA a necessary thing.

[rush1]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

They need the "help" in the sense that the FIA sets the industry standard if you will. The drivers need the help from the FIA as setting the standard allows their credentials to be measured against other drivers in different series. The FIA provides a sort of "yardstick" if you will.

If the drivers in the IRL or CC had no wish to race in say, F1 or LeMans, for example than I would agree with your statement that the FIA is not needed. The fact that they do and drivers who come here want their time in the seat to count for something makes the FIA a necessary thing.

But doesn't a scenario bother you where the FIA, at the behest of F1 tells a racing series they may not race on a certain date because it conflicts with F1? Why would an independent racing series listen to the FIA under such circumstances? If the FIA tried to black ball drivers who participated in non FIA sanctioned events than that is nothing more than an attempt to control the schedule of an independent racing series. In must be pointed out however that the FIA has not threated to black ball champ car racers who participated in non sanctioned FIA events.

I am not saying the FIA is not needed, I am saying a healthy racing series with paying sponsors need not pay attention to their dictates. Champ car apparently is not one of those series.

[Ian Sowman]

The FIFA football World Cup took place in Germany last summer. If another organisation had decided to organise another (rival?) international tournament at around the same time, I daresay FIFA would have put a stop to it. It isn't really very different. If anyone is just allowed to organise tournaments/events as they see fit, you'd have anarchy.

[Leighton Irwin]

Right on Ian.
The FIA is not always (rarely?) fair but neither is life.
F1 is in this case the 600lb gorilla, like it or not.
The FIA does not need to verabalize threats. Everyone in the sport knows what the FIA has the power to do. If a track runs an 'outlaw' race they know that there is a very real possibility they will have their track license lifted. Then the only races they can run will be 'outlaw' races and drivers who run in those races could lose their Int'l licenses. It might not happen but the FIA have that power.

[Fogelhund]

Just a note, Zhuhai had prior bookings on the weekends of Oct 13-14 and Oct 27-28 anyway. (the dates I believe in question)

http://www.zic.com.cn/zicen/calendar.php?sectionid=19

This event was never going to fly.

[rush1]

Originally Posted by Leighton Irwin

Right on Ian.
The FIA is not always (rarely?) fair but neither is life.
F1 is in this case the 600lb gorilla, like it or not.
The FIA does not need to verabalize threats. Everyone in the sport knows what the FIA has the power to do. If a track runs an 'outlaw' race they know that there is a very real possibility they will have their track license lifted. Then the only races they can run will be 'outlaw' races and drivers who run in those races could lose their Int'l licenses. It might not happen but the FIA have that power.

Well that is too much power because its really F1 who has that power. You really think its good to have Bernie Eccelstone controlling all professional auto racing events around the world?

This whole thing is ripe for the picking. CART pre split could have called F1's bluff, or just hold all their races in North America. This highlights another important reason we need a single open wheel series in North America.

[JohnSSC]

And so it goes.

In England, much of what the lower level football leagues are impacted by what the Premiership does. In baseball in America, the lower level leagues are impacted by what MLB does. In racing it will be F1. There is always a big dog on the porch...

Won't disagree with the strength through consolidation idea...

[mountainstar]

Apparently Mr. Kalkoven is going to meet with accus. It may be dead from the fia viewpoint, but not from champcars.

I might understand if the champcar race was scheduled on the same weekend, but 3 weeks apart in another part of the country? I don't buy it. We've sighted other examples of races happening in close proximity to F1 races(like on the same weekend), yet this is different? Still don't buy it.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Apparently Mr. Kalkoven is going to meet with accus. It may be dead from the fia viewpoint, but not from champcars.

I might understand if the champcar race was scheduled on the same weekend, but 3 weeks apart in another part of the country? I don't buy it. We've sighted other examples of races happening in close proximity to F1 races(like on the same weekend), yet this is different? Still don't buy it.

I thought ACCUS was a "toothless organization," Mountainstar?

Mosley seems pretty matter-of-fact in the speedtv.com interview that October in Zhuhai is off the table....

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I thought ACCUS was a "toothless organization," Mountainstar?

Mosley seems pretty matter-of-fact in the speedtv.com interview that October in Zhuhai is off the table....

It is, but we must pay tribute to the all knowing, all great and all feeling, world dominating, fia, by going though our local representative.

[JohnSSC]

All of the petty comments aside about ACCUS and FIA, CC should have done their homework. Period. Both of the October race weekends already have something scheduled at Zhuhai who CC would have to partner with. If this is part of their bold business plan and Pacific Rim concept then they need to go back and look at the Ansan mess and do a debrief.

FIA is not CC's problem. The problem is the hobby racers who think they can run CC.

[norman-normal]

How do you account for the fact that both the IRL and F1 steal the hobby racers ideas John? ( a fact you have denied in the past, but a fact never the less)

[TWK]

One idea that runs through the posts of some in this thread, is that FIA "approvals" of other events have anything to do with the F1 calendar, either generally, or specifically in this case. They don't.

F1 is NOT the "same thing as FIA." It takes almost NO effort to determine that, if one chooses to make that effort.

The FIA is NOT a "racing organization," it is an "automobile organization." Other members include the auto manufacturers themselves. Among those functions are the coordination of international automobile safety and design standards, and testing, a function that lets those companies much more successfully sell internationally.

Lastly, the FIA came into being as a creation of all those entities - manufacturers, racing leagues, etc....NOT "on its own." The FIA is their own organization - they built it, and they vote and meet within it, through their membership in ACCUS (if competition related) or otherwise in the (much larger) general automotive side. It is the voluntary "trade association" of the automotive industry.

[norman-normal]

TWK thank you, but your review is, more or less, common knowledge.
You may not be aware of the fact that Bernie&Max have a bond that goes back to when they were both youngsters involved in racing. That together with the fact that, F1 is as important to the FIA, as Indy is to the IRL.

The FIA operates some what independently of Bernie; however if Bernie chooses to use the FIA as a weapon, Max seems more that willing to oblige.

[Tim Northcutt]

What I want to know is how Champ car was going to partner with one of two motorcycle series that are racing on the October weekends that they were seeking...

Don't bike track set-ups include bigger and softer barriers or, in some cases, hay bales, etc.???

Would the bikes race the same track configuration as the cars???

Would those bike series even want to partner with Champ Car???

With the mess that this has become, I'm not assuming that Champ Car or the promoter have thought any of this through....they don't seem to be on the ball on this one at all...

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

How do you account for the fact that both the IRL and F1 steal the hobby racers ideas John? ( a fact you have denied in the past, but a fact never the less)

Uh, Norman, what has this to do with a thread about the FIA?

[TWK]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

TWK thank you, but your review is, more or less, common knowledge.
You may not be aware of the fact that Bernie&Max have a bond that goes back to when they were both youngsters involved in racing. That together with the fact that, F1 is as important to the FIA, as Indy is to the IRL.

The FIA operates some what independently of Bernie; however if Bernie chooses to use the FIA as a weapon, Max seems more that willing to oblige.

It appears in many of the posts above that it was "less" common knowledge. Yes, I'm perfectly aware that Bernie and Max go way back. And it's my point of view that and a buck or so might get you a cup of coffee.

That relationship and F1 have nothing to do with FIA's decisions in regard to Champ Car, China, or anything else in this thread. Of course, I also have to admit that I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, and the neither George Bush, nor the CIA planned the 911 attack.

Champ Car is making its own bed. For all the excuses, they've got a mess for one reason: they made it.

[JohnSSC]

Well stated, TWK...

If this is an example of how the "business plan" is to be carried out, CC is worse off than I thought.

[courageous]

My understanding is that priority on dates is given on the following basis (not quite black and white though):

1. F1
2. The national motor racing organisor
3. First come first serve (including other FIA championships such as WTCC)


Yes the FIA/F1 connection is a conflict of interest, but as ever taking on "the man" takes big balls & popular support (at least 10 circuits, 20 drivers & several million if not billion pounds must be willing to commit to kissing goodbye to all other motor racing).


Finally - maybe if Champ Car sorted out their calender in advance, they wouldn't have these problems!

[Purist]

If they other promoter back out, then without a potential second deal, there wasn't going to be a China race anyway.

Doing your homework guarantees NOTHING. With the first promoter, it sounds like nothing more than sour grapes. I haven't heard anything to suggest that either promoter is actually incapable of putting on the event (merit of potential partners that CART would be looking at working with). So, the only stumbling block I see is the FIA, whose case seems ludicrous on the face of it.

Courageous, and how exactly would you ensure they had the calendar secured that far in advance, AND had a satisfactorily high number of races in the season? Things take time, and there are sometimes no guarantees until the race is actually run, regardless of how good your planning is.

[Purist]

For all the complaining about how inept CART supposedly is, between this and South Korea, this isn't a very large percentage of the events that HAVE been run over the last four or five seasons. IRL's season outside of Indy has had noticeable inconsistencies. ALMS and Grand-Am mix things up too, outside of their marque events. NASCAR and F1, however, have been running at many, if not most, of their venues for decades.

[Asa]

I suggest Champ Car try to get the FIA to sanction a non-championship race at Zhuhai this year, before hosting a proper championship race in 2008. That way they can at least fulfill their obligations. I think the FIA might be willing to sanction a non-championship exhibition race that does not count for series points, maybe not every team/driver need to participate also.

If not, then the project will die and it will be difficult to get back on the right side of any potential promoters in the future.

Japan GT used to visit Malaysia as an exhibition race to test out everything before commiting the race to the series. It wanted to do the same with California Speedway but it didn't work out. Both races were sanctioned by FIA but were not part of the series calendar proper.

[JohnSSC]

NASCAR has been expanding the number of venues they run at. Some are tracks where they have run for years but they explore their new markets carefully.

CC is supposed to be a top-line series. Many here have posted repeatedly that the big advantage for CC is to have the Big Business Brainiacs in charge with their graphs, charts, business plans and business models.

This is not just about two races remaining forever TBA on the schedule. This about an inability to finalize a schedule, consistently, for several years. First, KK talked about his Pacific Rim Strategy, which gave us the stillborn Ansan race. Then it seemed that the Pacific Rim Strategy was no longer a strategy and off to Europe we go. Now we are off to Europe and the Pacific Rim and we get the Zhuhai Gambit.

Oh yes, stable platform this one is. Flip. Flop. Flip. Flop. How are sponsors supposed to know what it is their sponsorship will get them when the series can not only not decide where they want to race, but when they do take off on a tangent they can't pull it off anyway?

Hobby Racers, Hobby Series Owners.