Why was Raikkonen always so overrated? - Page 2

Gt_R · 24 Jul 2007, 14:01 (Ref:1972150)

OJB, if the Renault wasn't the best car over a season for the two years, then i don't know what is. Sure, the Renaults may not be the quickest in the last few races of the season, but by then the gap of the championship is almost too big to recover.

And people blame Kimi for the failures, that's probably fine. But perhaps, people should question maybe it's something to do with the car. I respect Newey alot, yet his desire to pack the car to it's limit has proved costly in Mclaren and now in Red Bull...

And Kimi did have quite a few problems, but so did Massa, showing that the reliability isn't really a drivers' issue, but an inherent problem with the car.

Boots, Massa outpaced Kimi alright... but the same happened at Mclaren. And while Massa had prior experience of Ferrari, Lewis is really a rookie in F1 sense... soo...?

All are quality drivers, but only one can come out a winner.

BootsOntheSide · 24 Jul 2007, 14:37 (Ref:1972183)

We've got a reasonable benchmark to compare car quality last year, as Alonso and Michael's respective team-mates had been team-mates themselves in the past (quite closely-matched in fact) yet last year Massa easily had the better of Fisichella (though he undoubedly improved from Michael's support last year). But that's a bit off-topic.

We do indeed have 4 high-quality drivers in the top 2 evenly-matched teams. The thing is, Massa always looked like the weakest of those drivers, yet 2007 is not bearing that out so far.

On the reliability question, Kimi had a lot more failures than JPM (always regarded as a car-breaker himself) in 2005, and compared to DC the previous 3 years. More than Massa this year as well. It can only go on so long without being more than coincidence or misfortune.

Inigo Montoya · 24 Jul 2007, 15:00 (Ref:1972195)

Why always these questions about who is best, overrated etc ? Can't we just enjoy the season and judge where the drivers fit in to history at the end of their careers?

Kimi, Massa, Hamilton and Alonso are all in a nice battle for the championship. Lets enjoy it and leave the "my guy is better than your guy" stuff behind.

Alan Raine · 24 Jul 2007, 15:04 (Ref:1972198)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Why always these questions about who is best, overrated etc ? Can't we just enjoy the season and judge where the drivers fit in to history at the end of their careers?

Kimi, Massa, Hamilton and Alonso are all in a nice battle for the championship. Lets enjoy it and leave the "my guy is better than your guy" stuff behind.

At last the voice of reason.

4 different drivers all doing what they do best. I have my preferences but I don't have anything against any of them. Let battle commence

OJB · 24 Jul 2007, 15:06 (Ref:1972200)

Gt_R, fair enough I'll rephrase - Renault had the better but not the fastest car.

McLaren in 2005 and Ferrari 2006 were better cars in my opinion, but lacked the consistency.

To be honest, if anyone is underrated it is (or was) Felipe Massa - I'm glad he's confounded critics because he is nowhere near as bad as people made out when he joined Ferrari. He ran in the points several times in 2005 racing a Sauber but failed to finish on numerous occassions (Sauber reliability wasn't great that year), but because it was Sauber not much notice was taken. Now I think he is more than making up for it.

At the end of the day though, 4 drivers at the top of their game challenging for the world title - long time since we could say that!!

BootsOntheSide · 24 Jul 2007, 17:42 (Ref:1972304)

True, you'd have to go back to 1986 and 1987 with Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Senna - although I think that's a better group of drivers overall than today's.

Knowlesy · 24 Jul 2007, 17:51 (Ref:1972311)

Roebuck sums up my feelings pretty much. Kimi is probably the fastest guy, but not the best, not the finished article (by some way actually).

This was a point I always tried to make throughout 2005 to back up my claims that Alonso deserved the title far more that year.

It's quite possible, if he doesn't win the title this year, that he'll never do it.

**Born Racer** · 24 Jul 2007, 18:34 (Ref:1972353)

Who here feels Alonso may now be faster than Raikkonen?

Alan Raine · 24 Jul 2007, 18:38 (Ref:1972357)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Who here feels Alonso may now be faster than Raikkonen?

IMHO Raikkonen is faster, but there's more to winning championships than being the fastest.

kartracer41 · 24 Jul 2007, 18:44 (Ref:1972363)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Who here feels Alonso may now be faster than Raikkonen?

I don't. I have personally never been impressed with Alonso. He had some jack rabbit starts in the Renault, and was quite consistant. But with Alonso, I have yet to see that stellar performance, you know, the one of greatness. I haven't seen that with Massa either. Both have proven they can win from the front. Time will tell (in F1) about Hamilton. Now on the other hand, we have Kimi who has many times done fantastic things in a lesser car. He may not have the championships to show, but IMO, in the car, on race day, he is currently the best.

Knowlesy · 24 Jul 2007, 18:51 (Ref:1972374)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Who here feels Alonso may now be faster than Raikkonen?

Over a single lap, no.

Over a race undoubtedly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kartracer41

I don't. I have personally never been impressed with Alonso. He had some jack rabbit starts in the Renault, and was quite consistant. But with Alonso, I have yet to see that stellar performance, you know, the one of greatness. I haven't seen that with Massa either. Both have proven they can win from the front. Time will tell (in F1) about Hamilton. Now on the other hand, we have Kimi who has many times done fantastic things in a lesser car. He may not have the championships to show, but IMO, in the car, on race day, he is currently the best.

Christ, it makes you wonder how Alonso won two titles! He has been gifted them it seems!

Patrick Fletche · 24 Jul 2007, 19:01 (Ref:1972379)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Who here feels Alonso may now be faster than Raikkonen?

Isn't now. Never will be.
His whole technique is slower.
And Kimi has an almost un-natural speed when he is going for it.

Look at the British GP and those 6 laps where he got Alonso over their second pit stops. Absolutely amazing stuff.

Also Kimi is far kinder on his tyres so they stay sweet far longer.
Also Kimi is far less sensitive to fuel load, filling it up does not slow him as much as it does the others. Ron used to take advantage of that at McLaren, fuelling him long in qualifying, now Ferrari are doing the same.

Mr V · 24 Jul 2007, 19:07 (Ref:1972384)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Fletche

Look at the British GP and those 6 laps where he got Alonso over their second pit stops. Absolutely amazing stuff.

In the fastest car out there it has to be said.

BootsOntheSide · 24 Jul 2007, 19:10 (Ref:1972387)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kartracer41

I don't. I have personally never been impressed with Alonso. He had some jack rabbit starts in the Renault, and was quite consistant. But with Alonso, I have yet to see that stellar performance, you know, the one of greatness. I haven't seen that with Massa either. Both have proven they can win from the front. Time will tell (in F1) about Hamilton. Now on the other hand, we have Kimi who has many times done fantastic things in a lesser car. He may not have the championships to show, but IMO, in the car, on race day, he is currently the best.

Getting to the front is an achievement in itself though - you usually have to outqualify the whole field, including at least 1 driver in identical equipment.

cds_uk · 24 Jul 2007, 19:48 (Ref:1972426)

Blimey, Kimi does bring out a difference in opinion doesn`t he, i have to say i dont think he is overrated, he is very fast, he is more than capable of some sublime drives, he is also more than capable of completely dissapearing if the car isn`t right. I am going to show my age here, for Kimi read Carlos Reutemann, both sublime talents, both moody and not exactley team players and in my opinion both to come agonisingly close to the title but ultimately failing.

Knowlesy · 24 Jul 2007, 20:01 (Ref:1972445)

I had Montoya down as Reutemann, that one's taken. Carlos even had the "shock walkout" thing going on.

It's hard to think of a parallel for Kimi. Mind you....do we need one?

Kimi bugs me though. I was a big fan of his actually (I think there is a thread started by me eulogising about his Spa win in 2004) but I just went off him. I don't know, maybe I just find him a bit too distant and incomprehensible.

But there is no doubt he's hellish quick.

One race weekend for me sums up Kimi really. Monza 2005. He had an engine failure and was penalised ten grid slots. So the team filled his car up to the brim for qualifying and he threw caution to the wind. After all there was no pressure on him, the title was gone at that stage more or less. He put in an incredible lap, I'll never forget the speed he carried through the Lesmos, his left wheels kissing the dirt on the exits. I think it got him second place, a fraction behind Alonso on time. This became 12th on the grid. An angry lap that was!

Then the race, the speed was still there. But he didn't really seem to think it through too well. The McLaren tyres were marginal thyat weekend, I think they were destroying the left rears, they were marking up very badly. Kimi seemed to forget this and destroyed his tyre in double quick time. Tyre swiftly replaced and the speed was there again but too much was lost and he later spun anyways.

Kimi in summary just drives. Your Alonso's and Schumacher's drive and think.

It'd be a shame if he didn't achieve the ultimate prize, but there is no shame in that. After all, few do it. Some true greats have not won that one so he'd be in decent company.

Dutton · 25 Jul 2007, 03:13 (Ref:1972696)

I would agree with the general consensus that Kimi is plenty fast enough and talented enough, but is still missing the critical additions that a great champion make (a champion is not necessarily great).

I think, though, that Ferrari could be the team to help him rise to the next level. I certainly hope so, given that he is going to be driving for Ferrari for the next few years (no, I do not see Ferrari suddenly dumping him [or him suddenly leaving]).

I was confident that Massa could be moulded into a signficantly more refined package by Ferrari, as I am with Kimi: I just hope that it does turn out this way. I certainly hope he wins at least a couple titles in his Ferrari time (I can happily survive if he doesn't, provided, that is, that his team-mate gets it,

).

I have to say I have always been more struck by Alonso than Kimi, but there is no science to this. Alonso was simply stunning for Minardi, thus he caught my imagination. I have always had a great deal of respect for Kimi, and have come to hugely appreciate his quite frightening skill. He's never "grabbed" me, though, in the way Alonso did.

I certainly think it would be thoroughly sad if he didn't win at least one championship, with some team or other, at some point or other, in his career. His ability deserves recognition by at least one title: this is, of course, nothing but an entirely subjective opinion.

HugeF1 · 27 Jul 2007, 15:43 (Ref:1974806)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Why always these questions about who is best, overrated etc ? Can't we just enjoy the season and judge where the drivers fit in to history at the end of their careers?

Kimi, Massa, Hamilton and Alonso are all in a nice battle for the championship. Lets enjoy it and leave the "my guy is better than your guy" stuff behind.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Having a title saying "why is Kimi overated?" just smacks of flambaiting to me.
Kimi is without a shadow of a doubt a VERY quick racing driver, however his attitude seems to be "do the work on the track and not off it". I sort of like the guy but he does irk me sometimes with his public persona.

**Peter Mallett** · 27 Jul 2007, 16:25 (Ref:1974837)

Totally overrated. Can't drive to save his life. Got rescued by Ferrari when they needed a hack to support Massa, was outgunned by Nick H in the Sauber and can't hold his drink either.

Should be fired and replaced with a real talent like Karthekian.

**Peter Mallett** · 27 Jul 2007, 16:26 (Ref:1974839)

OK nursey, I'll take my pills now.

deeks6 · 28 Jul 2007, 03:58 (Ref:1975115)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Fletche

The engineers at both McLaren and Ferrari have said that he is the fastest driver they have ever seen/calibrated/experienced. Faster than a lot of very famous names including Senna and MS.
Many commentators think that he is the fastest ever. He is definitely, by far, the fastest driver currently in F1. All the teams have computers that look at every driver at every session and analyse how much of the lap times is down to the driver and how much down to the car. This is essential competetive information. It is one reason why everyone knows how fast he is and why he is the highest paid F1 driver.
If it wasn't for Mercedes engines blowing up he would be at least a 2X world champion now.
The percentage of races where he gets fastest lap is very high, even in a "slower" car. USA this year for instance.
His work ethic certainly seems to have stepped up at Ferrari. He has done a lot of testing this year.

If you really want to be convinced how fast he is just go to Youtube and look at in car videos of the different drivers. Preferably in qualifying or fastest laps. Once you understand that sliding a car is always slower it all becomes clear. Some drivers, like Alonso, are always sliding the front of the car with understeer. This makes the car stable and easier to drive. It also scrubs off energy and thus speed. Some drivers, like Hamilton, prefer a loose back end and are always sliding the back around with oversteer. This gives them more agility but once again it scrubbs off energy and thus speed.
Kimi keeps the car neutral nearly all the time. He goes through corners very cleanly with no over or understeer and so does not scrub off speed. Basically he balances the car so that he is getting the maximum performance out of all four tyres. This is a very rare skill as it is very difficult to do. Some can concentrate enough to do it for one lap, hence the drivers who qualify faster than they race. Kimi, uniquely, can do it for a whole race. Not only that, he can also stay neutral through a wide range of different bends from hairpins to flat out sweepers. This is simply amazing.

It really is one of the finest sights in current F1 to see Kimi on full chat. His immense skill and speed is a sight to behold.

I am not a Kimi fanboy. In fact I am not an anybody fanboy. Just stating the facts. And I have been following F1 since the 1960s.

Could you back this up with some names?

No, thought not ...

If Break-en-em was that good, he have towelled all of his teammates all of the time - in both qualifying and races - he has NOT done this by a long shot.

Amazing statements given that his current teammate Massa has outperformed him in both qualifying and races for most of the year.

Amazing statements given that Montoya beat him regularly at McLaren and I doubt that Montoya is going to be acclaimed as one of the F1 greats.

Amazing statements given that Nick Heidfeld and David Coulthatrd beat him clearly in his first year at Sauber and McLaren. By comparison, Mark Webber, for example outperformed both of those drivers in similar circumstances.

Amazing statements given that there were direct comparisons with his "style" against MS in a race (Hungary, I think) where Breakenem was bouncing off kerbs and all over the place whereas MS was as smooth as ever. If he was a smooth driver, he would'nt break so many cars.

Raikkonnen is simply THE most over-rated driver in the history of F1 and will NEVER be WDC.

Fish_Flake · 28 Jul 2007, 04:23 (Ref:1975119)

Can we get a roll call on this thread to prove which posters are serious and which ones are sarcastic? When Raikkonen is the topic, I just can't tell.

Dutton · 28 Jul 2007, 04:25 (Ref:1975120)

I vary.

I am also really helpful.

This post is proof.

Inigo Montoya · 28 Jul 2007, 07:48 (Ref:1975164)

Good point Fish_Flake - I can't tell either! I'll make my position clear: If a driver is a good enough to get a drive in a top team, then he's probably good enough to win the WDC.

I will judge where he fits in relative to others at the end of everyone's career.

Forza Kimi! Forza Lewis! Forza Felipe! and Forza Fernando!

**Peter Mallett** · 28 Jul 2007, 08:13 (Ref:1975173)

Er you missed Fisi?

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Montoya is overrated	killer bird	Formula One	47	21 Mar 2006 15:37
Villeneuve is overrated!!!!!!!!!!	neutral	Formula One	26	15 Jul 2000 23:08