[Rules] The FIA - what's occurring there?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

This looks fun…

More here.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/s...-fia/10589285/

[Tourer]

Sky report here. Defamation is a criminal offence in France (civil court in most other jurisdictions) which is part of the reason this action is being taken in France (where FIA is headquartered). Less chance of a big payout but more serious for those accused if found guilty and more likely to require a higher level of transparency.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Sky report here. Defamation is a criminal offence in France (civil court in most other jurisdictions) which is part of the reason this action is being taken in France (where FIA is headquartered). Less chance of a big payout but more serious for those accused if found guilty and more likely to require a higher level of transparency.

This is risky- recent Australian cases have shown both parties in a less than ideal manner. Do the Wollfs really want to drag themselves through this level of discovery and court conjecture?

Also - who is going to believe that they have never had pillow talk that pertains to work…..

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

This is risky- recent Australian cases have shown both parties in a less than ideal manner. Do the Wollfs really want to drag themselves through this level of discovery and court conjecture?

Also - who is going to believe that they have never had pillow talk that pertains to work…..

To make the claims that Ben made you generally have to be the one to prove things, rather than the Wolffs have to disprove the allegations. This is already made more difficult for Ben in that the entire paddock backed the Wolffs.

[Tourer]

Another poster and I mentioned this in the Australian Grand Prix thread but it seems to me that it should also be discussed here.

We all know that George Russell had his shunt on Sunday but why wasn't a red flag (& lights) thrown straight away? Certainly George felt highly exposed and wanted a red flag as this video shows - the fear in his voice is palpable and I have to say I completely understand.

The view from Lance Stroll's car (next car on the scene) is a somewhat scary and it has to be said that his engineer did a great job of warning him.

In the meantime, the race director chose to implement the Virtual Safety Car, which felt like way too little with a car lying across the track and the driver still in it. I would only need one driver to "not see" or not respond enough or not be warned by their team and it could have become quite ugly.

Seems to be a pattern of race control using an escalating system rather than responding to severity of incidents IMHO. The standard approach seems to be VCS, then SC, then if needed Red Flag. Not convinced this is smart, as the risk/severity of a situation should be what governs the response, rather than sticking with a multi-step system of escalation as a standard incident response.

Not at all convinced that the FIA is doing the right thing by the drivers here & I expect it'll be up for discussion in the next drivers' briefing.

[Richard C]

Agree. I think Lance did a decently good job, but even then it was scary as it still could have gone badly. I think it should have been a red flag.

Richard

[Plantagenet]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Agree. I think Lance did a decently good job, but even then it was scary as it still could have gone badly. I think it should have been a red flag.

Richard

I completely agree too. I wonder if the controversy of the red flag(s)so late in last year’s Aussie GP had any influence in their decision this year.
This would trigger a red flag in any UK national amateur race so completely baffling why they continued.

[chillibowl]

will defer to those with better understanding and am certainly not trying to downplay the importance of safety, but how would have a red flag have differed from a VSC there?

i guess some cars would have had to go by the accident more than once depending on their track position at the time of the incident but others would have had to anyways even with a red flag...not sure if overall track position played a factor in their decision.

its RC though so who really knows what goes into their decisions?

i guess GR would have been classified as finishing the race in the points had their been a red flag and then count back to the previous lap for the final results...cant imagine they would have done a 1 lap restart.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

This is risky- recent Australian cases have shown both parties in a less than ideal manner. Do the Wollfs really want to drag themselves through this level of discovery and court conjecture?

Also - who is going to believe that they have never had pillow talk that pertains to work…..

Defamation laws vary from country to country.Australia is notorious for having the developed democratic worlds worst defamation laws.Designed to protect the person/business being complained about and shaft the person doing the complaining.What happens in Australia is no predictor of the way these things will play out anywhere else.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

will defer to those with better understanding and am certainly not trying to downplay the importance of safety, but how would have a red flag have differed from a VSC there?

I would love to hear thoughts from someone like Greem who is a marshal.

My tiny knowledge of this is that under VSC you must drive no faster than a specific delta (which I think is track specific and maybe with values at the sector or even more granular level) Interestingly, I think a red flag might use the same VSC delta while cars drive to pits? I think there is also another rule specifically for even slower speed at double yellows. I think that was implemented last year?

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-insight...low-flag-zones

If you watch the video from Lance, and assuming the audio is fully synced with the video, he gets a warning, but not not much before he reaches Russell. As he rounds the right hand corner you see both Russell and the double yellow (on the the right) at around the same time. So it came up on him quickly, but he had already slowed due to the verbal warning before seeing the double yellows. Imagine if he was having radio issues at that time and didn't hear the warnings! Maybe there were some double yellows before the video started??

After he passes Russell it he gets back on the gas then there is the VSC and even with the VSC he seems to be moving decently quickly. That could be the same speed others might be arriving at the accident if they didn't slow even more on their own?

Given the the required speed for a red vs. VSC seems to maybe be the same you might think there is no value in selecting Red over VSC, but I think there ends up being zero incentive for drivers to go slower than the delta in a red flag. In a VSC drivers would still be trying to go as close to the delta as they can. In this case, the race was effectively over anyhow given it was so close to the end of the race.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard C

but I think there ends up being zero incentive for drivers to go slower than the delta in a red flag.

Sorry, typo in the above that really gets my message wrong. I meant to say there is zero incentive for drivers to go slower than the delta in a "VSC". In a red flag, they could go even slower than the delta as trying to go as quick as the delta time provides little advantage other than to hustle back to the pitlane. Plus a red flag provides illustration to the driver as to the seriousness of what they should encounter on track ahead of them.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

will defer to those with better understanding and am certainly not trying to downplay the importance of safety, but how would have a red flag have differed from a VSC there?

I don't currently do any officiating or work on a race team (in the past for me) but a red flag caries a very different message to a VSC. Red Flag (I'm paraphrasing) means severe incident, slow right down and be prepared to stop, return to the pit lane slowly. A VSC simply requires them to slow to a delta time that is more like the pace they'd run behind a real SC. No passing in both cases unless the car in front slows with an obvious problem.

A red flag would trigger the "count back" system for results but the race would have still been declared and more importantly, the Russell incident would have been managed in a much safer way IMHO.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

will defer to those with better understanding and am certainly not trying to downplay the importance of safety, but how would have a red flag have differed from a VSC there?

Functionally, I don't think it would have changed anything to red flag it.

Stroll would have still come across the incident at a similar pace (through the Double Waved Yellows that are visible the whole time from his onboard, VSC as he passed GR's car) and the medical car would still have been dispatched into traffic like it was (still race cars going past while the medical car was parked up) There wouldn't have been any trackside marshals cleared onto the circuit, the response times wouldn't have been better..
I can't see why a red would have been better for that situation.

Originally Posted by Richard C

So it came up on him quickly, but he had already slowed due to the verbal warning before seeing the double yellows. Imagine if he was having radio issues at that time and didn't hear the warnings! Maybe there were some double yellows before the video started??

Double yellows are visible on the LHS approaching the corner for the whole of Lance's video. They were there for about 2 seconds before the verbal warning, and about 6 seconds before Lance actually came up on the incident. I wouldn't say that the radio did the whole job here, it would be interesting to compare some other laps from Lance and see where he slowed down.

[Greem]

George was speaking to his race engineer. The race director would have been receiving information on the radio from multiple resources - mostly the sector marshals (post chiefs) and/or flag marshals who witnessed the incident.

If the nearest responsible SM assessed the situation and was happy that the track was passable, they may not have asked for a session stop (nobody except race control use the term "red flag" on the radio in order that erroneous deployments are avoided).

Even if they did, the race director has both the TV and CCTV footage available plus all the onboards. They can overrule a request from a sector marshal.

With less than two laps to go, running under VSC was a good compromise IMO.

Also, for completeness, the single yellow, double yellow and red flags have increasingly strong wording about degrees of danger, whether marshals may be on track possible need for changes of direction, and being prepared to stop.

Also also the medical car is deployed automatically if the crash sensor on a car indicates a G load above a set threshold. The sensor triggers, the blue light on the car is lit, and regardless of circuit conditions the nearest medical car is deployed immediately. No approval is required although courtesy dictates that the passenger with the radio will call in that they're en route.

[Skam85]

great insight as always Greem.

I didn't see an issue with the VSC with the race all but over. Either VSC, SC or red flag still requires the cars to drive past the scene, at a slow pace, being ready to stop at any moment. The race director would know exactly where each car is on the track at any point, and made the right call.

A red flag doesn't mean all cars just stop where they are on track.

The only difference a red flag would have made would that the result would have been called from the lap before, and thus Russell in the points.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Skam85

great insight as always Greem.

I didn't see an issue with the VSC with the race all but over. Either VSC, SC or red flag still requires the cars to drive past the scene, at a slow pace, being ready to stop at any moment. The race director would know exactly where each car is on the track at any point, and made the right call.

A red flag doesn't mean all cars just stop where they are on track.

The only difference a red flag would have made would that the result would have been called from the lap before, and thus Russell in the points.

Russell would have been the cause of the red flag.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Russell would have been the cause of the red flag.

Yes indeed. To be classified, even on countback to the end of the previous lap, the car must still be racing at the time a red flag is called.

George was still on the circuit but whether a car lying on its side in the middle of the track is "still racing" is probably debatable

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Greem

Yes indeed. To be classified, even on countback to the end of the previous lap, the car must still be racing at the time a red flag is called.

George was still on the circuit but whether a car lying on its side in the middle of the track is "still racing" is probably debatable

I'm probably mistaken/ignorant then and the rules have probably changed since... but wasn't Alonso on the podium still for the 2003 Brazilian GP after his causing the red flag? Webber also was in the points and he crashed as well.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Greem

Yes indeed. To be classified, even on countback to the end of the previous lap, the car must still be racing at the time a red flag is called.

George was still on the circuit but whether a car lying on its side in the middle of the track is "still racing" is probably debatable

I stand corrected - that is a rule I'm familiar with from UK racing; it doesn't apply to F1. Classification is awarded to any car/driver finishing 90% of the race distance when the race is completed, whether that is before the scheduled lap number or not.

[Plantagenet]

Originally Posted by Greem

Also, for completeness, the single yellow, double yellow and red flags have increasingly strong wording about degrees of danger, whether marshals may be on track possible need for changes of direction, and being prepared to stop.

.

Greem - for me, this is the key bit. I drive formula ford and 'we' definitely change our behaviour (i.e. the degree to which we slow down) depending on the colour of the flag, red flags almost universally causing everyone to lift off alot and immediately. The same can't always be said for the other warnings. I can't help but feel that for driver safety (given he was upside down in a car on the racing line) that red should have been the way to go IMHO.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Russell would have been the cause of the red flag.

Why would that make a difference?

If I'm understanding the regulations correctly, assuming the red flag was called on that same lap, then wouldn't 58.14 be the appropriate regulation?

58.14 If the sprint session or the race cannot be resumed the results will be taken at the end of the penultimate lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the sprint session or the race was given.

[Richard C]

Question for anyone who knows what the expected/accepted speeds are under various conditions. I call out some of the wording in regulations below (bolding interesting parts)...

Double Yellow Flag

Only mention of double waves yellow in sporting regulations is that it "might" trigger a VSC. But no specific mention of meeting delta time requirements within a marshal sector.

International Sporting Code Appendix H covers flags in general (not F1 specific) and it doesn't provide any answers specific to F1.

VSC - Sprint or Race

(Sporting Regulations) 56.5 All competing cars must reduce speed and stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at least once in each marshalling sector and at both the first and second safety car lines (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track between each of the FIA light panels).
All cars must also be above this minimum time when the FIA light panels change to green (see Article 56.7 below).
When initiated during the sprint session or a race, the stewards may impose any of the penalties under Article 54.3a), 54.3b), 54.3c) or 54.3d) on any driver who fails to stay above the minimum time as required by the above.

In short, drive slow, no faster than the minimum delta.

SC - Sprint or Race

(Sporting Regulations) 55.7 All competing cars must reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which all Competitors have been sent the “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” message using the official messaging system until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at least once in each marshalling sector and at both the first and second safety car lines (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track between each of the FIA light panels).

In short, drive slow, no faster than the minimum delta

Stopped Session (Red Flag) - Practice or Qualifying

(Sporting Regulations) 37.6 (a) When the signal is given to stop all cars must immediately reduce speed and proceed slowly back to the pit lane. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the “RED FLAG” message appears on the official messaging system until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line when entering the pit lane, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at least once in each marshalling sector (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track between each of the FIA light panels).

In short, drive slow, no faster than the minimum delta

Interesting note, this regulations is in the "Practice Session" section, but calls out that it applies to "practice, qualifying and sprint qualifying" but not racing. See below for racing.

Suspending Session (Red Flag) - Sprint or Race

(Sporting Regulations) 57.2 When the signal is given overtaking is forbidden, the pit exit will be closed and all cars must proceed slowly into the pit lane. The first car to arrive in the pit lane should proceed directly to the pit exit staying in the fast lane, all the other cars should form up in a line behind the first car.

In short, drive "slow" to the pit, BUT no specific speed such as adherence to marshal sector deltas. To me this means "slow" is subjective and less restrictive than in a SC or VSC!!

So items of note, Red flag speeds are defined differently between practice/qualifying and racing. Different phraseology as well (stopped vs. suspended). Oversight in the rules? I posted a link earlier in the thread (from last year) about work toward a specific reduced speed for double waved yellows, but can't find any mention of that in the regulations.

Thoughts? Sorry for this overly long and somewhat pedantic/anorak/nerdy post.

Richard

[chillibowl]

unintended consequences always!

so had there been a red flag after the GR shunt, all the cars would have had to slow down to some unspecified level of slowness and head directly to the pits, lining up at the pit lane exit in the order in which they entered the pit lane?

that seems like an odd thing to have to do on the last lap of the race?

[Mike Harte]

As someone else mentioned, F1 drivers seem to believe that a fractional lift on the throttle is adequate when double yellow flags are waived, whereas amateur drivers in F. Ford will slow right down. And I know that I have oft said on these threads that the FIA and F1 drivers have forgotten the outcome of Bianchi not slowing sufficiently when he "ignored" waived double yellows when he lost control of his car and thus lost his life.

I don't know when or why the FIA changed the red flag rules; in the past, all cars would drive slowly on to the grid area where they would be directed by marshals where to stop. This is the usual procedure here in the UK, except when the race director/clerk of the course believes that the race may not be recommenced for whatever reason.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Greem

I stand corrected - that is a rule I'm familiar with from UK racing; it doesn't apply to F1. Classification is awarded to any car/driver finishing 90% of the race distance when the race is completed, whether that is before the scheduled lap number or not.

I wasn't sure. I knew the F1 rules did change some time ago but couldn't remember which way round.