Andretti F1 - 2025

[Mike Harte]

Chilli, when the spend figure of, say $550 million, is mentioned, that would be what is currently required to pay FOM their "fee" of $200 million, then add in whatever it costs to create the facilities to build their own cars plus associated staffing costs, transporters, mobile gin palaces and materials and so on.

[chillibowl]

that’s what I’m getting at…where they are at is still an inconsequential amount to spend, even as a start up cost, on a top level sports franchise.

In todays economy, you need to be in the couple of billion dollar range at least.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Bit of a side question, perhaps already answered in this thread, but where would Andretti be getting 500m+ from?

Gainbridge allegedly. And anyone else who thinks they can double their money too probably.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that’s what I’m getting at…where they are at is still an inconsequential amount to spend, even as a start up cost, on a top level sports franchise.

In todays economy, you need to be in the couple of billion dollar range at least.

They once said the only way an F1 team can make a small profit is to start with a large one or words to that effect

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

They once said the only way an F1 team can make a small profit is to start with a large one or words to that effect

There are exceptions, though, like Eddie Jordan who doesn't seem to have suffered too much.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by S griffin

They once said the only way an F1 team can make a small profit is to start with a large one or words to that effect

I think the quote started with '... the only way to make a fortune out of motor racing ...etc.' Not F1.

I think F1 teams have always made money in large amounts (possibly with the odd badly run exception).

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

There are exceptions, though, like Eddie Jordan who doesn't seem to have suffered too much.

I heard the team was on its uppers when he sold out. No doubt he did ok though!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Then they should buy a team!

I'm sorry, I always get a chuckle out of the "just buy a team" and "at some price everything is for sale" logic. It's a good soundbite but also so unrealistic.



Richard

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I'm sorry, I always get a chuckle out of the "just buy a team" and "at some price everything is for sale" logic. It's a good soundbite but also so unrealistic.



Richard

Thanks Richard.... the image and context brought a chuckle to my day.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I'm sorry, I always get a chuckle out of the "just buy a team" and "at some price everything is for sale" logic. It's a good soundbite but also so unrealistic.



Richard

Just ignore that 2/3 teams are 100% available for a price.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Just ignore that 2/3 teams are 100% available for a price.

I think you missed the point. Yes, everything may have a price (how much for the women!) But for someone who is not wanting to sell, that price will likely be above market value. Why pay a premium?

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Richard, don't waste your breath (or time bothering to reply)!

[Greem]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Just ignore that 2/3 teams are 100% available for a price.

Is that:

• Two out of three specific teams, and if so, which three and which two?
• Two out of any three teams?
• Two out of any three teams, which as there's ten in total, means there's six and a fractional bit of a team up for sale?
• Or two thirds of a team?

[chillibowl]

Like half the teams are owned or controlled by investment firms or group of investors…by definition those teams would all be tradable assets so most certainly have a value and price tag attached to them.

If rumours about the RB drama is to be believed, Horner felt that the RB teams were for sale.

Haas has seen a lot of speculation for sale for a while now.

AM team has been bought and sold more times than I can count

Merc is, as always, one board vote away from a sale.

So it’s really just Ferrari that’s not for sale…but in a way it was recently sold via an IPO and/or is always for sale now as a publicly traded corp and like Merc only ever a board vote away.

Not sure why teams having a (very high)price tag attached to them is a controversial notion?

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by Greem

Is that:

• Two out of three specific teams, and if so, which three and which two?
• Two out of any three teams?
• Two out of any three teams, which as there's ten in total, means there's six and a fractional bit of a team up for sale?
• Or two thirds of a team?

Or there are two or three teams out of the ten that are available for a price

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

Or there are two or three teams out of the ten that are available for a price

That's how I took it. We're splitting hairs over a '/' vs a '-'

[Greem]

I fear that I didn't make my sarcasm very clear...

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I think you missed the point. Yes, everything may have a price (how much for the women!) But for someone who is not wanting to sell, that price will likely be above market value. Why pay a premium?

Richard

I'm not sure I missed the point at all. There are teams who would sell.

To think the Andretti F1 project, and it's rejection, is about anything other than money/investment return is missing the biggest point.

[S griffin]

I don’t think teams are in a hurry to sell. Andretti deserves to be in F1 of it’s own merit

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Greem

I fear that I didn't make my sarcasm very clear...

At least one of us got it, Graeme.

[Tourer]

Some more thoughts on Andretti's situation from Autosport.

As is often the case, the comments on the article contain some, uh, "interesting" theories & statements.

As that is a "plus" article, behind a paywall, here is the text:

Are Andretti's slim F1 hopes beginning to further dwindle?

OPINION: Andretti's F1 push remains despite F1's rejection, with Pat Symonds the latest high-profile signing to the technical department. But despite the interjection of the US Judiciary Committee, are the American outfit's chances thinning?

Had Andretti been among the myriad applicants to join the Formula 1 grid 15 years ago, it surely would have managed to beat some of the pretenders to an entry. It wouldn't have taken much back then: all a prospective entrant needed was a semi-competent technical operation, some facilities larger than a broom cupboard, and an initial 'yes' to taking a Cosworth V8 for a year or two. That said, only two of the four teams granted entries that year possessed all three qualities...

Perhaps Andretti would have made the cut during the 2014 application process too, when Haas won the tender to join the grid for either 2015 or 2016. F1 wasn't in particularly good health at that time: Caterham had gone to the wall, Sauber was perilously close to the Swiss chronograph's final tick, and Manor/Marussia needed a bail-out which kept it circling the drain for a little longer.

Force India was only alive for as long as owner Vijay Mallya could avoid extradition and asset freezes, Lotus was in a battle against the bailiffs prior to its Renault take-over, and non-payment of bills caused further issues when it was locked out of its hospitality unit at Suzuka. In the meantime, cracks in Williams' financial health were barely papered over by its Martini title sponsorship deal, which only briefly stopped its over-reliance on pay drivers.

That period in the early days of the turbo-hybrid formula does lend credence to F1's modern-day reticence - nay, complete unwillingness - to open the field up to an 11th entry. Even Andretti had to respect that point of view when its entry application last year was sent back, presumably daubed with a comically oversized stamp bearing "DENIED" in red ink, even if it did not agree with FOM's assessment.

But F1 is not the same stilted, fussy environment that it was under Bernie Ecclestone, the teams beholden to divide-and-conquer tactics from above to maintain a sense of parochiality. It's become a different place under the Liberty stewardship, one that's more open to change and evolution in almost every facet.

Except one, as Michael Andretti's squad has found to its detriment. A key ally has also wavered.

FIA president Mohammed Ben Sulayem's assertions last year that the governing body's entry tender process was permissible because "our contract says we have up to 12 teams, so we are not breaking the rules. We are, on the contrary, fulfilling the rules" have now changed tune. He told Reuters last week that "I would advise [Andretti] to go and buy another team, not to come as the 11th team," a comprehensive swing in attitude.

It has been suggested that Ben Sulayem's volte-face is part of an effort to quell the fire between the FIA and FOM, particularly as a new Concorde Agreement is in the works. After all, a unified front presented by the governing body and the commercial rights holder could mitigate the individual aspirations of teams much more effectively.

The 2026 edition of the Concorde Agreement segues neatly into the other issue that Andretti has to contend with: a hike in the anti-dilution fee. Currently set at $200 million to offset the potential revenue hit taken by other teams with an 11th entrant, the growth of F1 has meant that this fee (in the existing teams' opinion) would not offer an adequate substitute for the reduction in any TV money, prize payments, or potential loss of sponsors. Thus, the fee seems set to rise to $600m.

Andretti can apply again for 2028 once the Cadillac power unit is designed and built, but there's no guarantee the rights holder will say yes

Despite F1 treating Andretti's bid to join the championship as an 800m hurdles event, with new hurdles added throughout the race, the American outfit has continued its efforts to build a team worthy of the grid.

During the entry process, there were concerns that an extra customer team would not add anything new; Andretti had a pre-agreement with Renault for powertrains, but gathered support from an OEM in General Motors through its Cadillac brand. Other areas of value? It built new facilities, created a wealth of new jobs, and presumably would be able to grease the path for its wealth of US sponsors across IndyCar and Formula E to a more international market.

Since its entry was declined, the Andretti Cadillac operation has continued to recruit. Technical guru Pat Symonds was enticed away from his FOM role to become an advisor and add to an engineering team boasting a wealth of F1 experience, including ex-Renault tech chief Nick Chester, former Jordan and Manor designer John McQuilliam, and ex-Williams aero lead Jon Tomlinson.

Despite this, F1 is sticking to its denial. Andretti can apply again for 2028 once the Cadillac power unit is designed and built, but there's no guarantee the rights holder will say yes.

Ben Sulayem's suggestion that Andretti purchases an existing outfit closes off that avenue for the time being, and the Emirati has now lent significant power to the "buy a team" clamour that persists among those who don't want the F1 grid to expand. Andretti's hopes of becoming an 11th team on the F1 grid appear to be dwindling and, although its appeal to the US senate might offer some progress, the laws governing anti-trust and anti-competition are complex when it comes to a privately funded sporting championship.

The bi-partisan letter sent to the Federal Trade Commission and the Department of Justice - spearheaded by Democrat Amy Klobuchar and Republican Mike Lee - appears to hinge on the idea that F1 has denied Andretti and Cadillac on the basis that they are American brands, writing: "It is possible that such a refusal to deal—especially if orchestrated through a group boycott—could violate U.S. antitrust laws."

In a court of law, "possibly" doth butter no parsnips. It feels unlikely that the US Department of Justice will force F1 to admit Andretti as an 11th team because international sporting competitions aren't quite the same as a parent forcing their child to make friends with the worm-sucking kid down the street.

And, if the letter is purely based on the idea that F1 is being anti-American, then it has little to stand on: few of the existing customer teams would pass up a chance to link up with GM/Cadillac to become a works entity. Rather, the teams are opposed to it because they don't want to give up their slice of the pie - is that really an anti-American standpoint?

The "buy a team" crowd has got its wish. It appears that Andretti's sole shot at a spell in F1 is through persuading somebody to part company with a highly valuable entry, but here's the kicker: nobody really wants to sell, at least outwardly. That said, some fruit hangs lower than others and, whenever takeover deals are mentioned, Alpine, RB, and Haas come to mind as the ripest, reachable drupes - even if they're not on the market.

But anything's for sale at the right price, or so say the people with the kind of wealth that transcends conventions or heritage. Of the three, RB feels like the least likely opportunity given its recent behind-the-curtain efforts to make the team genuinely competitive once again. Its rebrand to a bland two-lettered moniker makes it the perfect vehicle for businesses who don't want to fully commit to owning a team, hence its attractiveness to financial service providers Visa and CashApp. But RB (or AlphaTauri, as was) has come under interest from potential suitors before.

In the Toro Rosso days, the team seemed to be up for sale every other year as Red Bull sought to reduce its F1 investment, but became a lot more attractive when the Italian squad was off the market. Amid speculation that new Red Bull GmbH CEO Oliver Mintzlaff, following the death of founder Dietrich Mateschitz, didn't want two F1 teams, AlphaTauri/RB seemed like it might be ripe for purchase.

When Rodin Cars CEO David Dicker (a proponent of another denied F1 application last year) queried how much it would cost to buy the team, he was quoted a price of almost $1 billion. Speaking to Autosport last year, Dicker stated that he could have bought Williams in 2020 for €140 million - such is the hike in teams' valuations.

Haas has offered recent assurance that the team is not up for sale, even in the wake of the announcement that its associated NASCAR team Stewart-Haas Racing will sell its charter off at the end of the year. A four-car entrant, SHR will close its doors following a downturn in form at the top level of competition across the past two years, having not won since 2022. The value of NASCAR Cup charters has increased dramatically in recent years, hence it appears that Gene Haas and Tony Stewart have decided to cash in and wind down the two-time Cup Series winning operation for good.

But will Haas start to feel the same about F1? Or, perchance, this is an effort by Haas to redirect some of his resources into an F1 effort that has at least consolidated its mid-table position this year. Either way, Andretti has tried to buy Haas out on multiple occasions and has been rebuffed on each. Why would that change?

That leaves Alpine. Renault Group CEO Luca de Meo has stated that the team is not for sale, and the raison d'etre of its Alpine rebrand was to accelerate the growth of its reborn sportscar arm through its F1 efforts. Except, that's not really quite come to pass - there's a reason why Renault declined to enter as Alpine in the 1970s when name recognition was arguably higher, simply because niche sportscar branding isn't important to the majority of people watching F1.

There are many different and conflicting rumours about the team's future in F1. Recent suggestions are that de Meo has asked ex-team principal Flavio Briatore to end his period of disgrace and assist the team with finding new investors. Briatore, whose on-off association with the team stretches back to 1988 having been installed as commercial director of Benetton, spent a number of years in exile thanks to his involvement in the Singapore 2008 'Crashgate' scandal.

Yet, there's something fitting if his services have indeed been engaged to assist with a sale rather than just scoping out investment. The Italian was at the helm through the start of its successes, the Schumacher years, and the Alonso years. But he was also with the team at its lowest moments and, as one of the key architects of Benetton and Renault's title wins, he might be well served to help the team into its next life.

More coincidentally, he'd be handing the entry over to a team including fellow Crashgate conspirator Symonds. Alpha and omega, if you will - although given Briatore's overlap at the team, 'epsilon and omega' might be more suitable.

That's all conjecture, but Alpine seems like it would be the most obvious option. There are suggestions that strategic partners Geely might be interested but, if Andretti can make a considerable offer, it would at least allow the mooted Andretti-Renault tie-up to happen until Cadillac rocks up in F1.

It's likely that the Andretti Cadillac higher-ups would simply prefer to own the entry and do F1 its own way, rather than take on the Enstone baggage, but it at least hands the team some assets that it won't need to build up itself. Renault would still own the Viry-Chatillon engine facility, given that it has multiple interests across motorsport here beyond F1 - for example, it develops the Nissan powertrains for Formula E. It's not like Andretti would be forced to buy an engine workshop it didn't want to own.

Of course, all of this is contingent on multiple things happening. But it seems like the opportunity for Andretti to become an 11th team, even in 2028, is an ever-closing door. Haas or Alpine will remain on Michael Andretti's shopping list, but an F1 team is an even rarer market item than the most seasonal of produce - and there's a big queue of people waiting for one to appear on the stall.

[Tourer]

Liberty confirms that anti-trust investigation underway in the US. Also advises that it is cooperating and has provided reasoning that it says complies with US legislation.

Let's see where it goes but I honestly don't feel like this is any kind of smoking gun.

[TrapezeArtist]

The thing I find oddly intriguing about this whole saga is why Andretti and GM keep on flogging away at it. Maybe Andretti can be explained by the fact the Andretti family are racers first and businessman second, and they just want to do F1. But why would GM put all that cash into designing a power unit and building a facility without some degree of certainly that they will get an entry?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

The thing I find oddly intriguing about this whole saga is why Andretti and GM keep on flogging away at it. Maybe Andretti can be explained by the fact the Andretti family are racers first and businessman second, and they just want to do F1. But why would GM put all that cash into designing a power unit and building a facility without some degree of certainly that they will get an entry?

Maybe they should just buy the Renault project and do all the updates that the other teams wouldn’t allow before re Homologating as their motor . Worked for Rover when they bought the Buick V8 back in the day!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

But why would GM put all that cash into designing a power unit and building a facility without some degree of certainly that they will get an entry?

My understanding is that them putting forth any significant effort was contingent upon on the Andretti entry being approved. I might be wrong, but can you point the them actually designing an engine or setting up new facilities for an F1 engine project? I can imagine they may have done some preliminary work as part of their decision making process, but not much more than that. Andretti has however spent some money on facilities.

Richard