[WEC] 2015 WEC Discussion

[TF110]

If ford does join, how long until Vette follows?

[deggis]

The grid cap is kind of depressing. How can the entry count ever really grow because the reasons and part-excuses will be true indefinitely? That's kind of a dilemma for a series that wants to grow.

If WEC had all-prototype grid with 30 cars, then I wouldn't complain.

I'd start by un-classifying GT-Am, so you wouldn't need (not that WEC has much of a problem calling 2 cars a class) to accept so many cars to call it a class in the first place. That would open a few more spots for other classes because simply more pro entries should have higher priority.

[TF110]

"2 cars a class"? I take that as lmp1-L, which ironically theyre doing away with. Maybe it goes GTE as full pro in the future.

[morningview66]

Far to early for this probbaly. Just a very vague guess at an entry list, heavily based on what we have this year + what we know is coming. Adds up to 32 cars very quickly though.

LMP1
Toyota
Toyota
Audi
Audi
Porsche
Porsche
Nissan
Nissan
Rebellion
Rebellion
Lotus?

LMP2
Strakka
KCMG
ESM
ESM
SMP
SMP

GTE-Pro
AF Corse
AF Corse
Porsche
Porsche
Aston Martin
Aston Martin/Bamboo

GTE-AM
AF Corse
AF Corse
AF Corse/AIM
Aston Martin
Aston Martin
Proton
Proton/Dempsey
Prospeed
8Star

[Purist]

With their track selection, there's no reason for the full-season cap to be any less than 35 cars, and they could probably swing 40, and still be fine. It kind of makes me wonder if they think Interlagos is too short, or something.

If they're looking for a growing economy, and a place that would play havoc on a number of things, run a race in/around La Paz, Bolivia. Apart from, maybe, the old Coupe des Alpes, I can't think of any FIA championship event being run at anywhere near 12,000ft. (Hopefully nobody takes this one too seriously.)

I agree that it should be a manufacturers' series with P1 and GTE-Pro efforts running the full season at events, partnered up with the various continental series. So the ELMS would have Silverstone, Spa, and the Nurburgring, and could probably support one or two other standalone races of lesser duration. If I had my druthers, drop Bahrain, and put in Sepang. Have the AsLMS be Fuji, Shanghai, and Sepang running with the WEC.

Frankly, they could put the guests and VIP's just about anywhere. Some might even be happier to be away from the pits and garages, and the potential of being exposed to even the least amount of oil, grease, or grime from the real work going on there. Heck, many executives and office engineers look down upon mechanics, and this has gone on for 40+ years now. It just makes me wonder, if the guys at the top look down on the people doing the actual labor, well, how long-lasting and stable can these particular corporate relationships be expected to be?

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Hopefully the idea floated last year and then dropped of adding additional garages at Le Mans gains some traction. The argument (valid) that they can't accept too many WEC entries in order to still allow invites to Le Mans is I think what truly stifles future WEC growth. Would be a win-win. Of course there have been many entries dropping out of Le Mans in the past few years, but once the worldwide economy improves there could be larger grids at Le Mans. Would love to see 70 or 80 cars running there!

[Deleted]

Those Neveu comments contradict that AM is going anywhere, sadly.

Former 35 entry gap being dropped to 32 can be explained by that "one or more additional local entries" thing, meaning that the definitely do not want it to go beyond 33-34 in any case. Useless standardization for no reason other than having a comfort zone.

Let's look at the Silverstone pit allocations. According to circuit website the new Arena/Wing/whatever pit facility has the capacity for 40 garages (or 41 as shown below). Now, Silverstone 6h this year had only 27 cars, so only 27x of them were in ACTUAL use while 5x were taken up by FIA/general use, 4x by LMP1 teams for whatever luxury, and 5x were left empty.
http://www.brsccmids.co.uk/Pit%20Gar...one%202014.pdf

You can fill the five empty garages for the FIA/ACO gap of 32, and then take off the couple of P1/FIA spots for the possible "local entries".

Now, why on Earth do the P1 teams need such extra luxurious space? I mean I know why they are there, to make them happy, but it's not like they get extra spots at Le Mans either, and these new Grade 1 Formula 1 facilities are gigantic. Neveu's "You can see how much space the LMP1 programs take up, for example” is just an excuse.
Same for the FIA spots.

And before anybody starts screaming for "there simply isn't room for 40+ cars" even if all the garages were freed for separate entries... hmm yes then how did they manage to have nearly 45-49 car fields in the days of ILMC when we had the new pits already
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=128
Same arguments apply for Spa, where there is actually space for 70 cars when the second pit lane is in use (wasn't in 2012)

All of this not also confirms what I said in the post #467, but also says that merged grids are never ever gonna happen again (as if that was ever in doubt anyway, but there could've been hope for AsLMS at least if they stopped being so ignorant for a moment)

[TF110]

Quantity < Quality.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Quantity < Quality.

What kind of crap argument is that, from Neveu's political handbook of happiness? Just because you could have a 40 car grid instead of 30 doesn't mean it's gonna be inferior to that in quality.

I would take the ILMC grids over any of the WEC grids anyday (next year's P1 excluded)

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Chiana

What kind of crap argument is that, from Neveu's political handbook of happiness? Just because you could have a 40 car grid instead of 30 doesn't mean it's gonna be inferior to that in quality.

I would take the ILMC grids over any of the WEC grids anyday (next year's P1 excluded)

I would take the ILMC's schedule over anything.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Gulf

I would take the ILMC's schedule over anything.

Me too. 2011 ILMC was the ultimate fantasy.

[TF110]

Its not a "crap argument". Its my pov. If you dont agree thats fine, but dont preach like your opinion is gospel. You continue on and on about the negatives of everything instead of appreciating what we do have. Imo, your view is slanted in that direction.

And what cars will be in those 40+ entries? More GTE-am's most likely because P2 looks satisfied with elms. GTE would probably just be more Aston Martins. Youve made your disdain towards them quite apparent already. As it is now, theres room for 4-8 more cars with the 27 consistent entries. Maybe 2 or 3 lmp1's, 2-4 lmp2's and GTE's. Do we really need 5 Vantages and 458's all painted the same?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Quantity < Quality.

That's a good argument if comparing to grids 10 years ago, but now you could have both.

[David Land]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Me too. 2011 ILMC was the ultimate fantasy.

I wish the FIA had never gotten involved. The ILMC was sportscar racing at its absolute best and raised everyone's game.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

Its not a "crap argument". Its my pov. If you dont agree thats fine, but dont preach like your opinion is gospel. You continue on and on about the negatives of everything instead of appreciating what we do have. Imo, your view is slanted in that direction.

And what cars will be in those 40+ entries? More GTE-am's most likely because P2 looks satisfied with elms. GTE would probably just be more Aston Martins. Youve made your disdain towards them quite apparent already. As it is now, theres room for 4-8 more cars with the 27 consistent entries. Maybe 2 or 3 lmp1's, 2-4 lmp2's and GTE's. Do we really need 5 Vantages and 458's all painted the same?

What we have is more and more a clone of F1 - with all the standarization, self-enrichment and propaganda that comes with it....

Anyway, enjoy the view from your pink glasses.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by David Land

I wish the FIA had never gotten involved. The ILMC was sportscar racing at its absolute best and raised everyone's game.

Yeah the FIA normally just ruins things.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by David Land

I wish the FIA had never gotten involved. The ILMC was sportscar racing at its absolute best and raised everyone's game.

Hear, hear

Originally Posted by TF110

Its not a "crap argument". Its my pov. If you dont agree thats fine, but dont preach like your opinion is gospel. You continue on and on about the negatives of everything instead of appreciating what we do have. Imo, your view is slanted in that direction.

And what cars will be in those 40+ entries? More GTE-am's most likely because P2 looks satisfied with elms. GTE would probably just be more Aston Martins. Youve made your disdain towards them quite apparent already. As it is now, theres room for 4-8 more cars with the 27 consistent entries. Maybe 2 or 3 lmp1's, 2-4 lmp2's and GTE's. Do we really need 5 Vantages and 458's all painted the same?

I've said this many times already, but if we wouldn't have had ILMC preceding this series, I might've been more forgiving for the errors of the organizers. Forgiving as in not complaining loudly but not smiling either. How exactly is this different (in principle, not in detail) from the ALMS fanbase having to morph into USCC.

What we have in WEC is amazing LMP1 factory (that likely would be there without the series anyway), troubled LMP1 privateer (caged in one series), mediocre LMP2 field (atm) with pro-am only content, unnecessarily divided LMGTE that is bopped every ten minutes and that takes too much space. And yes the (2011) ILMC had the same bopped GTEs in two sub classes, but there was quite bit of variation there with all the merged grids and all, and most importantly the 1% rule still existed to create at least some kind of thin impression that it wasn't entirely about lottery politics.

If they allowed unlimited entries for every round and ability to score points for partial season appearances like in the LMS, do I think they would come in masses? No of course not, they'd probably never hit 40 on their own (even for Spa now that there is ELMS event closer to Le Mans). But it's the principle, now there can never be big grids just because the big bosses have decided so for comfort purposes. And as I said it finally and utterly diminishes the chance of merged grids even for partial seasons... which while may not have worked with the US scenery anymore anyway and even with ELMS it would've been difficult (unless they axed filler GT3 class), it is something that they could have and should've have done with the Asian LMS next year. Even if for 1-2 races. They have such ridiculously sized grids anyway that it wouldn't "hurt" the garage situation at Fuji or wherever.

Finally, by retaining the useless AM subcategory they are bound to turn off some potential LMP2 teams just because of "balance" and making the overall scheme look neat and sophisticated

[deggis]

Originally Posted by David Land

I wish the FIA had never gotten involved. The ILMC was sportscar racing at its absolute best and raised everyone's game.

Originally Posted by Gulf

Yeah the FIA normally just ruins things.

Reading between the lines, you are trying to claim that ILMC in 2014 would be better and bigger than WEC is right now. Now that's a pretty rose-tinted view.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by deggis

Reading between the lines, you are trying to claim that ILMC in 2014 would be better and bigger than WEC is right now. Now that's a pretty rose-tinted view.

It's impossible to tell what the status of the ILMC would be now because of the integrated grid -ideology's impact on the evolution of the regional series. For example the death driven 2012 Le Mans Series, ALMS decisions on selling out to NASCAR Empire after ACO/FIA abandoned them etc. However I see no reason why it would be standing in the shadow of the current product. Sure you wouldn't have the FIA trophy and all the stuff that comes with it, but the ACO had the means to promote ILMC as well, and with the aid of the regional series.

The big manufacturers like to have series that centers around Le Mans of course and that may have been like 25% of the reason manufacturer involvement has increased (though of course now that you have multiple makes competing at Le Mans and adding to the prestige, the growing lust to go to Le Mans should already be there without any series anyway). But I don't think it matters if it called the ILMC or WEC or Sportsman Trophy Cup for Rally Cars... it's still Le Mans that drags them in. And the other categories don't care for **** except maybe privateers who love the idea of being world champions. Even though technically they are only receiving FIA Endurance Trophies, not world championships...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

What we have is more and more a clone of F1 - with all the standarization, self-enrichment and propaganda that comes with it....

Anyway, enjoy the view from your pink glasses.

Hmm, no; my vision is clear. How do you get standarization self enrichment and propaganda? Lmp1 is near the opposite of F1. Your view seems to be red, seeing nothing green in the future. I dont pretend everything is rosy. Neither do I pretend everything is rolling downhill because a couple aspects exist I dont agree with.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Hear, hear



I've said this many times already, but if we wouldn't have had ILMC preceding this series, I might've been more forgiving for the errors of the organizers. Forgiving as in not complaining loudly but not smiling either. How exactly is this different (in principle, not in detail) from the ALMS fanbase having to morph into USCC.

What we have in WEC is amazing LMP1 factory (that likely would be there without the series anyway), troubled LMP1 privateer (caged in one series), mediocre LMP2 field (atm) with pro-am only content, unnecessarily divided LMGTE that is bopped every ten minutes and that takes too much space. And yes the (2011) ILMC had the same bopped GTEs in two sub classes, but there was quite bit of variation there with all the merged grids and all, and most importantly the 1% rule still existed to create at least some kind of thin impression that it wasn't entirely about lottery politics.

Lmp1 manufacturers wanted a world championship, the ilmc wasn't truly that. Your bop rant is silly. As if bop doesnt exist in other series, or ever in the past. You talk about variety but the ACO stipulates only certain cars can run in GTE, so you have a total of 3 different vehicles for over 10 entries, which kind of refutes your next statement-

Originally Posted by Chiana

If they allowed unlimited entries for every round and ability to score points for partial season appearances like in the LMS, do I think they would come in masses? No of course not, they'd probably never hit 40 on their own (even for Spa now that there is ELMS event closer to Le Mans). But it's the principle, now there can never be big grids just because the big bosses have decided so for comfort purposes. And as I said it finally and utterly diminishes the chance of merged grids even for partial seasons... which while may not have worked with the US scenery anymore anyway and even with ELMS it would've been difficult (unless they axed filler GT3 class), it is something that they could have and should've have done with the Asian LMS next year. Even if for 1-2 races. They have such ridiculously sized grids anyway that it wouldn't "hurt" the garage situation at Fuji or wherever.

Finally, by retaining the useless AM subcategory they are bound to turn off some potential LMP2 teams just because of "balance" and making the overall scheme look neat and sophisticated.

Your suggestion is to allow entries from other regional series, yet FIA (gt3) cars (that run in AsLMS/ELMS) in those and would be the only different or unique cars. So while people blame the FIA, they want the FIA style cars to run in a series theyre not allowed to, by the ACO By allowing (actually absorbing) the regional series' cars, what would be the point in having ELMS or AsLMS? I dont see the logic presented in the assumptions you're making about limited grid sizes. Its always one thing or another. You want the other series' to be healthy, but you want them to run with the wec. It wont work for those small teams and their interests.

[David Land]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

Hopefully the idea floated last year and then dropped of adding additional garages at Le Mans gains some traction. The argument (valid) that they can't accept too many WEC entries in order to still allow invites to Le Mans is I think what truly stifles future WEC growth. Would be a win-win. Of course there have been many entries dropping out of Le Mans in the past few years, but once the worldwide economy improves there could be larger grids at Le Mans. Would love to see 70 or 80 cars running there!

Qualifying.

Get rid of the ridiculous invite system and whoever turns up in June has to be one of the fastest 55.

Easy problem to solve.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Hmm, no; my vision is clear. How do you get standarization self enrichment and propaganda? Lmp1 is near the opposite of F1. Your view seems to be red, seeing nothing green in the future. I dont pretend everything is rosy. Neither do I pretend everything is rolling downhill because a couple aspects exist I dont agree with.

If one looks at the championship and compares it to Formula 1, obviously in contrast it's about as free as one can get. Car count not fixed in X amount and can be altered, liveries can be changed, driver lineups can be switched for every race and the amount of them can change too, you can switch back between models and the eligibility range is massive, you don't need to sign on for full season to take part in event, less spec parts and components and suppliers, cars that look different, multiple categories with multiple regulations racing together in varying speeds, various driver categorizations for different purposes, different race distances, different weekend and session formats, and so on. It is far from being standardized if you look at this way.

But if one looks at the championship and compares it to other major championship that is similar, say the United Sportscar Championship or hell the ILMC most obviously, it's about as-standardized-as-F1 as it gets. Every race bar the obvious on Grade 1 Formula 1 circuits, every race bar the obvious fixed to same distance, bar the obvious very little change from race to race in entry outlook, and so on. Then the merged grids and varying classes and whatnot you used to have.

Lmp1 manufacturers wanted a world championship, the ilmc wasn't truly that. Your bop rant is silly. As if bop doesnt exist in other series, or ever in the past. You talk about variety but the ACO stipulates only certain cars can run in GTE, so you have a total of 3 different vehicles for over 10 entries, which kind of refutes your next statement-

There is no proof that the manufacturers wouldn't be there without the world championship banner on top. As I said I'm sure they love the LM-circulating global series being there but the ILMC was effectively that, just without the official credentials.

If you haven't read my countless and countless arguments with provided facts on why the current ACO GT bopping is way different than what is was even 5 years ago (when it existed yes but not on the same level and ideology), then I can't help you.

By variety I meant the regional teams and change in overall outlook more than the models, as obviously current LMGTE lacks them.

Your suggestion is to allow entries from other regional series, yet FIA (gt3) cars (that run in AsLMS/ELMS) in those and would be the only different or unique cars. So while people blame the FIA, they want the FIA style cars to run in a series theyre not allowed to, by the ACO By allowing (actually absorbing) the regional series' cars, what would be the point in having ELMS or AsLMS? I dont see the logic presented in the assumptions you're making about limited grid sizes. Its always one thing or another. You want the other series' to be healthy, but you want them to run with the wec. It wont work for those small teams and their interests.

Asian Le Mans Series doesn't work on their own anyway, they would get the extra exposure from WEC for their races, even if for partial season. That or the Super GT linkup of the past (not that the relations are that great)

When the LMS and ALMS were integrated with the ILMC, did they suffer from the world series explosure? I remember few LMS teams *****ing at Silverstone in 2010 and Greg Pickett saying something naughty at Sebring for not being the top dogs, but effectively it was all fine. For 2011 you still had great grids for the non-integrated LMS events before it all went kaboom for standalone 2012. They got extra exposure they otherwise wouldn't have without the factories and bigger ACO media people being there, plus they still fought for their own championship so it's not like they lost anything. Sebring and PLM have never been so big afterwards. The 2012 Sebring WEC was fiasco due to FIA/ACO being ignorant and demanding silly sub classes for their own, and IMSA being stubborn with their spec classes being there in full capacity.

Originally Posted by David Land

Qualifying.

Get rid of the ridiculous invite system and whoever turns up in June has to be one of the fastest 55.

Easy problem to solve.

No that would hurt feelings, make the "everybody must win" system outdated and make people buying themselves Le Mans entry by entering WEC impossible. Surely someone here is about to say "this isn't the 60's anymore

Anyway while I'd have pre-qualifying used more in modern motor racing, it'd be better to just drop LM off from the championship and build more garages. Invites are fine if properly managed

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

GrahamGoodwinChiefEditorOfDailysportscarDotCom says there's solid pointers towards Ford in GTE soon (2015 or 2016).

I've been out of the loop with these Ford rumours. Have they hinted at what car they would use? Because I can't think of any current cars that can compete in GTE. Unless they re-revive the GT.

Originally Posted by David Land

Qualifying.

Get rid of the ridiculous invite system and whoever turns up in June has to be one of the fastest 55.

Easy problem to solve.

I don't think teams who pay to compete in the whole championship would be happy getting kicked out of the biggest, most-points producing race. But at this point, I don't think qualifying matters since Le Mans can barely get 55 cars.

Originally Posted by Chiana

But if one looks at the championship and compares it to other major championship that is similar, say the United Sportscar Championship or hell the ILMC most obviously, it's about as-standardized-as-F1 as it gets. Every race bar the obvious on Grade 1 Formula 1 circuits, every race bar the obvious fixed to same distance, bar the obvious very little change from race to race in entry outlook, and so on. Then the merged grids and same classes and whatnot you used to have.

If the ILMC continued into 2012, the schedule would have been just as "standardized" as it is today. Sebring and PLM would have been dropped since IMSA gave the ACO the boot. The 2012 schedule would have consisted of all 6 Hours racing, except Le Mans.

What we see today would have been the result of the ILMC too.

[Purist]

I don't exactly see the need for two GTE classes, either, and thus, those cars, by default in such a scheme, taking up more grid slots, on an increasingly limited grid. The frequency of PoP has become greater, and is kind of silly at this point. Also, for the 2014 season, there were five ACO-approved GTE models running in various series, and the BMW would make six; last time I checked, five to six is rather more than just three.

I don't know that anyone was advocating for the GT3s to take part in the WEC events. That one is just kind of hanging right now.

A standardized grid size, such as they're doing, is unnecessary, and goes against the spirit of variety that is supposed to be a hallmark of Sportscar racing in the first place. Going to only Grade 1 circuits, apart from Le Mans itself, is a status/ego thing, nothing more. Maybe I'm simply too German to "get it", or to even care!

I don't think the change from ILMC to WEC was a magical thing. For a while there, we were wondering IF there would continue to be an ELMS to provide a foundation for the WEC past 2012. An ILMC continuing on from 2011, with the promise of the 2014 rules package in LMP1, would have done quite well, I have no doubt.

They gave the big, and necessary, bone to the manufacturers. They could have kept with sharing grids in Europe, and helping create a fledgeling series in Asia. In North America, they could have run the full grid with the ALMS at Road America. Have just the Pro categories join in at Sebring and Road Atlanta, where grid/track space was more of an issue, given the larger ALMS grids at those events to begin with.

Cooperation with the rest of the series/organizational structure would have yielded a better product on the whole, I have little doubt of that. I don't want or need the "top" series turning into another F1, or F1-like exclusive club, which only concern is those at the very top. We don't need another series that races only on circuits where you CAN'T see enough good frames of reference to make these amazing cars look as spectacular as they damn well ought to! F1 legislated out the privateers, and while Sportscar racing has always had a generous place for works efforts, it has also always been the case that privateers and skilled enthusiasts are not only welcome, but integral.

It wouldn't surprise me if a number of the LMP2 teams don't find the WEC to have as inviting a climate anymore.

Also, the economy is no excuse anymore. Those with the funding and resources to run an operation of this magnitude pulled totally out of the recession by three years ago, now. Those who could afford it before things tanked in late 2008 are better off now than they were then. (This makes all the talk about cost-cutting measures, in the classes where it's being discussed, seem all the more ridiculous.) About the only ones who aren't doing better now, are those who messed up so badly, and covered their asses so poorly, that they ended up in jail.

Back for a final note on the racing. The 40-50 car grids at Monza and Spa looked a whole Hell of a lot more impressive than the barely-over-20-car grids of recent F1 seasons. I'm sure it didn't hurt the series in how that looked on the TV screens. Yeah, just try to argue with that one.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Salamus

I've been out of the loop with these Ford rumours. Have they hinted at what car they would use? Because I can't think of any current cars that can compete in GTE. Unless they re-revive the GT.

You guessed it right;

http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/r...ord-gt-revival
http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...e-mans-program