[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage

It's more efficient to boost more heavily over a shorter time frame for reasons, of which I don't have the confidence in my ability to explain adequately.

That's right. But if the ACO caps the hybrid output and allows the same amount of energy to be used, it will just happen over a longer period of time with less power. That's how they did it with Le Mans because it's an FIA grade 2 track.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by TF110

That's right. But if the ACO caps the hybrid output and allows the same amount of energy to be used, it will just happen over a longer period of time with less power. That's how they did it with Le Mans because it's an FIA grade 2 track.

The lower you cap the power of the hybrid, the less useful it will be. Look at F1, they spread their deployment so thin you don't even notice it anymore, nor does the world feed even bother.

But is this plan working within the fuel flow framework or are we envisioning a return to air restrictors? Because that changes the problem entirely.

[TF110]

900hp vs 600hp. I think that's a significant difference. It will still be a huge boost to have that much power. Instead of something like an additional 600hp for 3 seconds, it'll be 300hp for 6 seconds. That's what I think will happen. And I'm not sure about the fuel meters. I haven't read anything about moving away from them.

[AoB Special Stage]

If we want an actual fight between the hybrid and non-hybrid cars to work with the efficiency skew, we might need to say, 'OK, you get x joules/kilometer, how and if you divide that between the combustion engine and a hybrid system is up to you. Go nuts.'

[chernaudi]

We have to remember that the 3.5MJ rules were pretty restrictive on how hybrid cars used their hybrid boost. I'm in favor of hybrids being used purely as range extenders instead of something to supplement engine power.

First of all, that might remove some of the incentive to run huge--and expensive to develop--hybrid systems. My big one is also that outside of the hybrid supercars, hybrid equipped cars aren't intended to be performance machines. The reason why people buy cars with small engines, or diesel engines, or hybrids or anything like that is to save money at the gas pump due to better fuel mileage.

Running DFI, especially in the air restrictor era, wasn't a huge performance advantage. It didn't really increase power, and though it might have helped with drive-ability for the cars that had it (no traction control back then on LMP cars), but it did extend range per a tank of fuel by, depending on conditions, 1-2 laps at Le Mans and 3-4 laps or so everywhere else.

I remember Audi with the R8 being able to run enough distance on a tank of fuel on street courses that they could, if they got enough yellow, do a race on one fuel stop. Granted, that was with about 20-25 or so more liters of fuel and it was on a street track, but the current cars can only do 45-50 minute stints. The R8s were able to do nearly hour and a half stints at times.

I still think we'll also need some pretty big performance balancing between the Toyotas next year and whatever privateer LMP1s show up. I'm not sure that the privateer cars can make much more than 700bhp and be reliable. Toyota are making like 1000-1100bhp, but nearly half of that is engine and hybrid.

You also still have the factory vs privateer factor, too.

[TzeiTzei]

It should be a 100 hp hybrid boost.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

We have to remember that the 3.5MJ rules were pretty restrictive on how hybrid cars used their hybrid boost. I'm in favor of hybrids being used purely as range extenders instead of something to supplement engine power.

First of all, that might remove some of the incentive to run huge--and expensive to develop--hybrid systems. My big one is also that outside of the hybrid supercars, hybrid equipped cars aren't intended to be performance machines. The reason why people buy cars with small engines, or diesel engines, or hybrids or anything like that is to save money at the gas pump due to better fuel mileage.

Hybrid street cars use the electric motors to supplement engine power, so they can run a "small" engine in a bigger car and still return good fuel mileage...

They'd be slugs with just a conventional 1.3l engine or whatever, and get terrible gas mileage without the electric assist because you'd have to wring the neck of the small engine otherwise.

[deggis]

Someone calculated these graphs, based on 2017 regs and with many assumptions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comment...gy_allowances/

[hondafan37]

ACO Open to Common DPi/LMP1 Platform for New 2020 .
This common platform could allow a single Sebring in 2020 and have the DPI in Le Mans .

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/a...new-2020-regs/

[canaglia]

Well, to balance lmp1-h and lmp1-L is quite simple to me.
At le mans LMP1-H can't develope more than combined 1000hp. This limit is achieved via ECU.

Cut fuel tank to 55L, ICE engines power will decrease and put that ECU limit to 750hp for lmp1-h.
While for lmp1-L, give free fuel flows and a 90L fuel tank. Mechachrome V6 should be able to hit 750hp as well.

At least for power release, there will be equivalence.
Of course private teams (if ever will be) can't match R&D, aero and tyres development to manufacturers (if ever will be...)

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

ACO Open to Common DPi/LMP1 Platform for New 2020 .
This common platform could allow a single Sebring in 2020 and have the DPI in Le Mans .

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/a...new-2020-regs/

Ah the Dagys spin machine. ACO says they'd like to get IMSA to use the same rules in 2020. Headline implies ACO will switch to DPi.

[AoB Special Stage]

[chernaudi]

Best thing would be a common platform, but there's the whole deal on different philosophies, different markets, and different technical rules views as far as technology vs cost savings.

I believe there should be a middle ground, but I'm not sure if IMSA or the ACO are willing to give and compromise enough to make it happen.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Best thing would be a common platform, but there's the whole deal on different philosophies, different markets, and different technical rules views as far as technology vs cost savings.

I believe there should be a middle ground, but I'm not sure if IMSA or the ACO are willing to give and compromise enough to make it happen.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Ah the Dagys spin machine. ACO says they'd like to get IMSA to use the same rules in 2020. Headline implies ACO will switch to DPi.

I don't see anything wrong with the headline and I think the article follows the headline well. It said they are "open" to a shared platform with the next rules package. Which is what the article said as well.

[MagVanisher]

It's great news that DPi will be allowed in LMP1, but will it open for more chassis manufacturers? After all, DPi is using 4 approved manufacturers based on LMP2.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

It's great news that DPi will be allowed in LMP1, but will it open for more chassis manufacturers? After all, DPi is using 4 approved manufacturers based on LMP2.

Getting ahead of ourselves a little?

[chernaudi]

If F1 are serious about reducing costs and maybe helping out as far as engine supply from a cost perspective, I don't see how a similar deal can't help LMP1.

If costs were brought down and there were quality chassis makers out there/teams who'd be willing buy customer engines from any engine supplier, that could make the "DPI" element more palatable, as well as still allowing for development of engines and cars.

Where we're at right now, if you want to be an engine supplier, you might as well design and build your own car, because the ACO's current regs (and lack at this moment at least of a viable partner with a car that's ready to go until the end of the season) basically encourage such a deal, as well as the factory having control over almost every aspect of the car.

Hopefully a deal similar to the original DPI of the Lola-Aston Martin might become a reality.

[chernaudi]

Originally posted in the Toyota thread, but I think it has relevance here in a different context.

I did read something interesting on another forum regarding finances, and I think that it's interesting that a point was brought up.

Most Japanese companies run to a different fiscal year than most North American or European companies do. Fiscal year for most Japanese companies runs from April to March. Most everyone else does like Sept. to August or Oct. to Sept.

The 2018/19 WEC schedule does, be it by coincidence or maybe by design, align with the Japanese fiscal year.

But the end of the season also aligns with being close to the 2019 fiscal year that most everyone else uses. Could that be a part of trying to get more teams in by then?

[HORNDAWG]

Peugeot >


http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/econo...e-moteurs.html






L.P.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The 2018/19 WEC schedule does, be it by coincidence or maybe by design, align with the Japanese fiscal year.

Since the super season will end in June 2019, I think the previous Japanese fiscal year has ended by almost 3 months.

Now back on topic, I'm scared on what's gonna happen next for WEC.

[YZFrider]

***FIA Technical Director Bernard Niclot is no longer with the organization, in a shakeup made last week following the Six Hours of Mexico. Niclot, the architect of the LMP1 Equivalence of Technology regulations, was reportedly under scrutiny in the wake of Balance of Performance discrepancies in GTE-Pro last year, and more recently, the originally announced 2020 LMP1 regulations, which has since been abandoned.

***Former Ferrari F1 engineer Gilles Simon, who worked with now-FIA President Jean Todt at the Italian manufacturer, has been tipped as Niclot’s replacement. A FIA spokesperson told Sportscar365 that no further information has been communicated beyond Niclot’s confirmed departure.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/c...ay-notebook-5/

Gilles Simon also worked for P.U.R.E and consulted for Honda F1 power units. Hmm

[PorscheFanNo1]

"was reportedly under scrutiny in the wake of Balance of Performance discrepancies in GTE-Pro last year"

I'd like to know more about that please, hope he got a decent payout from Ford for whatever he was doing, cause it worked very well.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

"was reportedly under scrutiny in the wake of Balance of Performance discrepancies in GTE-Pro last year"

I'd like to know more about that please, hope he got a decent payout from Ford for whatever he was doing, cause it worked very well.

Hey, they were only one of two blowing out the competition.

[AoB Special Stage]

https://youtu.be/JrUl9AZAjtc?t=3259

I'll just leave this here.