Andretti F1 - 2025

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

My understanding is that them putting forth any significant effort was contingent upon on the Andretti entry being approved. I might be wrong, but can you point the them actually designing an engine or setting up new facilities for an F1 engine project? I can imagine they may have done some preliminary work as part of their decision making process, but not much more than that. Andretti has however spent some money on facilities.

It's almost a chicken and egg situation isn't it? GM chose to attempt entry to F1 with a team that doesn't have an entry and GM also outright rejected the suggestion of supplying any other teams - so from a GM point of view, everything hangs on the Andretti entry.

I read elsewhere on the interwebz that the timeline for these anti-trust investigations is at best something like this: 12 or so months of investigation, which MAY then lead to a court case that goes for another 12 months or so. That would get us to mid 2026 AT BEST before an outcome is known and I imagine is subject to appeal in any case. On that basis, having a Caddy power unit ready for 2028 seems ridiculously optimistic.

Of course, FOM would be unlikely to accept an entry from an entity that it is in legal dispute with, so the result of going down the anti-trust route may well be to delay any possible entry for a number of years, maybe many years. Plus FOM might choose to accept a court decision in 2026 but offer entry with limited logistical resources, particularly around paddock space - essentially saying "we pointed out lack of paddock space at many circuits, so the Andretti entry is accepted on the basis of no motorhome and only 1 truck in the paddock until the paddocks can be enlarged in 3 year's time".

Personally I think going the anti-trust route is likely to result in the wagons getting circled and timeline drawn out - might be another example of Andretti not taking the smartest approach.

[GTRMagic]

The anti-trust investigation was coming.. from getting the politicians involved at various stages of the Andretti application and follow thru it was almost a given.

Good governance and a review of that governance on occasion is likely healthy, and something that may appease the mobs on the outside looking in at the machinations of a US listed public company.

It is doubtful that anyone at Liberty or the teams shall enjoy the probe that may be coming up. Distracting, time consuming, expensive. Polarising. And likely learnings dilutive, now in costs, future for reputational impact whatever the outcome.

Whatever the outcome, if anyone at Andretti thinks that trying to join a game by having questioned in public the bona fides of the players, the coaches and the owners and not have blowback on that… perhaps they might need to have a book and movie deal in place right now… it’s not likely anyone will want to play with them otherwise…

Stupid thing is.. the effluent cannot now be put back into the horse. Even if Andretti got the opportunity and were able to agree terms to absorb Alpine or Haas.. the unwieldy giant of the US backbenchers looking to make a difference in the world has been woken.. and it might not be able to get them sleeping again.

It is difficult to see GM wanting to be within a million miles of this..

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The anti-trust investigation was coming.. from getting the politicians involved at various stages of the Andretti application and follow thru it was almost a given.

Good governance and a review of that governance on occasion is likely healthy, and something that may appease the mobs on the outside looking in at the machinations of a US listed public company.

It is doubtful that anyone at Liberty or the teams shall enjoy the probe that may be coming up. Distracting, time consuming, expensive. Polarising. And likely learnings dilutive, now in costs, future for reputational impact whatever the outcome.

Whatever the outcome, if anyone at Andretti thinks that trying to join a game by having questioned in public the bona fides of the players, the coaches and the owners and not have blowback on that… perhaps they might need to have a book and movie deal in place right now… it’s not likely anyone will want to play with them otherwise…

Stupid thing is.. the effluent cannot now be put back into the horse. Even if Andretti got the opportunity and were able to agree terms to absorb Alpine or Haas.. the unwieldy giant of the US backbenchers looking to make a difference in the world has been woken.. and it might not be able to get them sleeping again.

It is difficult to see GM wanting to be within a million miles of this..

We'll see what happens in the process of the DOJ investigation.
If what Mario alleged was said is true, then something has to give way.

It's not over until the Fat Lady sings.
Right now, she is probably busy composing music.....

[GTRMagic]

A commercially aware person or group might just engage a third party partner management organisation to chase every single brand attached to the complaint’s sponsor portfolio, with the intention of perhaps poaching them and placing them at a preferred sports property for a commission, or to frighten them away completely.

There are a number of said partner management sharks in this country.. amd many are definitely capable and demonstrably effective at weakening the enemy by cutting off the vital cash flow to keep the dream alive.

This assumes anyone in F1 is mercenary or vindictive of course….

[S griffin]

Really F1 bought this on themselves. The fact they rejected a team that had more than enough credentials to make it in the sport, shows how out of touch some of those higher up in F1 are. Really I don't feel sorry for the sport about this investigation. F1 needs a reality check

[peebee2]

It's almost as if somebody wants to write a book "How To Go The Wrong Way About Absolutely Everything."

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by peebee2

It's almost as if somebody wants to write a book "How To Go The Wrong Way About Absolutely Everything."

Andretti or Liberty

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Andretti or Liberty

Seriously? Andretti I think, fairly obviously.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Andretti or Liberty

Clearly both its fairly obvious.

Richard

[P38 in workshop]

I disagree with most off the comments as it seems to be accepted that Liberty are in a bombproof position with respect to their contract with the FIA.If found to be violating anti-trust legislation,what is to stop an organisation with access to the disruptors mentioned above from seeking to have the contract declared void and put out for tender again?It might appeal to the sort of company that boosted the profile of the championship as a result of their TV series to move up a notch and run the show.Or one of Mr Ecclestone's associates might step in.If the teams looked likely to receive more income as a result of any changes I expect their protestations would evaporate.

[GTRMagic]

Had Mr Ecclestone been in the big chair, Andretti might have joined the grid as Haas/Alpine/Toto Rosso and nobody would have seen the machinations behind the scenes.

Instead, the equivalent of a nuclear war may be imminent.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Clearly both its fairly obvious.

Richard

Completely agree…

[Richard C]

So... I can offer up a more serious comment on this other than poking fun at Peebee as he is buried deep in his bunker that is plastered all over with FOM/F1 stickers!

Originally Posted by Tourer

It's almost a chicken and egg situation isn't it? GM chose to attempt entry to F1 with a team that doesn't have an entry and GM also outright rejected the suggestion of supplying any other teams - so from a GM point of view, everything hangs on the Andretti entry.

I get your point, but don't think its complicated. I would broadly assume that most of the time any power unit manufacture is looking to enter the sport with a specific partner for one or more reasons. It might be a desire to have a strong team, marketing reasons, etc. I think GM found an affinity for partnership with Andretti. And going into F1 without that partner just didn't align for their reasons for considering entry. And no doubt how they have been treated (note, they were in partnership with Andretti) has probably left quite a bad taste in their mouth. As bad as Andretti's public approach has been FOM has matched them at that game in similar ways. Everyone involved is covered in mud.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Personally I think going the anti-trust route is likely to result in the wagons getting circled and timeline drawn out - might be another example of Andretti not taking the smartest approach.

I only quoted this one part of your post regarding the anti-trust situation, but wanted to comment on the larger topic. As to Andretti not taking the "smartest approach". I tend to think we are way past Andretti "playing nice" and sucking up to FOM. Maybe if they had followed the appropriate procedure of groveling naked, kissing of feet, self flagellation or whatever is needed to appease the FOM gods from the start, things might be different.

As to the outcome of any anti-trust efforts. I guess at some level Andretti feels this might be applying pressure to get FOM to change course for them and GM (probably close to zero chance). However I tend to think it may be less about their entry than a combination of poking a finger in the eye of FOM and maybe... just maybe a tiny bit of altruism in making it easier and more fair for the next guy.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I get your point, but don't think its complicated. I would broadly assume that most of the time any power unit manufacture is looking to enter the sport with a specific partner for one or more reasons. It might be a desire to have a strong team, marketing reasons, etc. I think GM found an affinity for partnership with Andretti. And going into F1 without that partner just didn't align for their reasons for considering entry. And no doubt how they have been treated (note, they were in partnership with Andretti) has probably left quite a bad taste in their mouth. As bad as Andretti's public approach has been FOM has matched them at that game in similar ways. Everyone involved is covered in mud.

Except of course that GM wasn't really going to be a partner until 2028, when its PU was due to become available. Also, GM refusing to countenance supply to other teams may play against it (if logic comes into anti-trust at all) as the decision to be "closed out" of F1 has been made by GM itself refusing to consider taking part with any team other than one that doesn't (yet) have an entry. I actually think that GM has been treated pretty well by the point in the FOM statement that an Andretti entry with GM PU in 2028 would be looked at quite differently. Agree with your last sentence completely though.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by peebee2

It's almost as if somebody wants to write a book "How To Go The Wrong Way About Absolutely Everything."

I was thinking, "On a Clear Day You Can See Formula 1."

(For those who may not know, John Delorean wrote a book entitled "On a Clear Day You Can See GM".)

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I only quoted this one part of your post regarding the anti-trust situation, but wanted to comment on the larger topic. As to Andretti not taking the "smartest approach". I tend to think we are way past Andretti "playing nice" and sucking up to FOM. Maybe if they had followed the appropriate procedure of groveling naked, kissing of feet, self flagellation or whatever is needed to appease the FOM gods from the start, things might be different.

As to the outcome of any anti-trust efforts. I guess at some level Andretti feels this might be applying pressure to get FOM to change course for them and GM (probably close to zero chance). However I tend to think it may be less about their entry than a combination of poking a finger in the eye of FOM and maybe... just maybe a tiny bit of altruism in making it easier and more fair for the next guy.

The way I see it, and the way it has sounded here down under, is that Andretti from the start has more or less said "we are Andretti, we are so important that we'd be doing you a favour by entering F1" and at least sounding seriously arrogant in its approach. Ultimately, Andretti is supposedly a "big deal" in one country only, even though that country is a big market and one that the F1 wants a larger presence in. It's been a bit over 15 years since I spent some time living and working in the US and certainly back then, the "love" for Andretti wasn't universal & most seemed to have either a love or hate view on them. I do wonder (for example) if Roger Penske or Chip Ganassi might have taken a different approach to Andretti if they had attempted to enter. Whatever the cause though, one thing that has stood out to me is that other than the FIA President (who has changed his tune recently) no-one within the F1 world has been positive about Andretti from the start (Zac Brown has probably been the most supportive and even he has been lukewarm at best).

Just feels like Andretti has got it wrong somewhere (or everywhere) and part of that is likely to be the plan to run from the US with a satellite in the UK - bringing massive logistical challenges with it, and mirroring the approach that Michael Andretti took personally as a driver, which failed completely and also part of the reason that he isn't that well regarded in F1.

I found the recent revelation that Hitech is in legal dispute with the FIA over its own failed bid for F1 entry really interesting, in that there has been NO public utterances nor announcements from Hitech about it, they are simply getting on with it. Given that FIA and FOM now both have legal challenges as a result of failed F1 entry bids, it's quite possible that the actions of both Hitech and Andretti may result in the door being firmly closed to even any suggestion of growing the grid in the future as both FIA and FOM may have a "once bitter, twice shy" view on opening entry applications again.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Except of course that GM wasn't really going to be a partner until 2028, when its PU was due to become available. Also, GM refusing to countenance supply to other teams may play against it (if logic comes into anti-trust at all) as the decision to be "closed out" of F1 has been made by GM itself refusing to consider taking part with any team other than one that doesn't (yet) have an entry. I actually think that GM has been treated pretty well by the point in the FOM statement that an Andretti entry with GM PU in 2028 would be looked at quite differently. Agree with your last sentence completely though.

I think that GM's part in the initial stages of the partnership are probably just seed money to get the project off the ground. I believe I read that Andretti has already started property hunting or building over here in the UK for the F1 project, and I would imagine that finance for that may have come from GM.

As to GM supply power units, I would imagine that, like any prospective new entry into F1, they have said that they will only supply Andretti initially until they know that they have a proven product.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The way I see it, and the way it has sounded here down under, is that Andretti from the start has more or less said "we are Andretti, we are so important that we'd be doing you a favour by entering F1" and at least sounding seriously arrogant in its approach.

There’s some truth in that. It really doesn’t matter what overthought and verbose nonsense “fans” write in here, it’s always been about capital value, and that was badly and naively misjudged.

The commercial rights holders simply cannot allow external investors, who are largely known, to come in with $500m and instantly have a $1bn asset. That would massively devalue the whole of F1 instantly and have enormous implications to the financing and leveraging of the business.

If Andretti really wanted to enter F1 as a long-term sporting asset they would long ago have bought one of the teams that have, at various, and current, times been available.

The Haas model, or similar, simply isn’t going to be allowed again under current circumstances, and the poor reading of the mood music from the outset has been consistent, which brings us back your point of arrogance.

This is largely the simple truth of it, no matter what utter fantasy some others continue to want to write, write and write again, as if repeating nonsense somehow gives an element of making their nonsense reality.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Except of course that GM wasn't really going to be a partner until 2028, when its PU was due to become available.

Actually no. GM was going to be a partner with Andretti on run to 2028. Yes, Andretti would be running another engine in short term out of necessity only. But GM and Andretti were partners. Just like Sauber today is running Ferrari engines but are owned by Audi and will run Audi engines when those come online in 2026.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Also, GM refusing to countenance supply to other teams may play against it (if logic comes into anti-trust at all) as the decision to be "closed out" of F1 has been made by GM itself refusing to consider taking part with any team other than one that doesn't (yet) have an entry.

Appendix 6 in the F1 Sporting Regulations speaks to this topic. There is a lot going on in that section (including formulas on determining just exactly how many teams a supplier may need to supply if there is a shortage of power unit suppliers), but in general power unit suppliers cant just arbitrarily say they will only supply one team. Additionally, those same regulations (there is lot going on in them) acknowledge what they call a "New Power Unit Manufacturer". I think what happens is that they try to not push the responsibility on a new PU supplier to supply other team. A new PU supplier is someone who is only in F1 for two years. So for example Audi would be an example If there was a shortage of manufactures in 2026, I don't think they would ask Audi to fill in the gap. But FIA can tell a supplier to provide an engine to a team.

What I suspect you are talking about is that GM has no interest in providing F1 engines to ANYONE if Andretti is not in F1. F1 is not "entitled" or should expect GM to just provide engines because they were interested in doing so as part of a partnership with Andretti.

Originally Posted by Tourer

I actually think that GM has been treated pretty well by the point in the FOM statement that an Andretti entry with GM PU in 2028 would be looked at quite differently.

Analogy to make my point...

You and your girlfriend show up to the club and ask to come in. The bouncer looks you up and down and says he wouldn't give you the time of day, but looks at your girlfriend and says she looks mighty fine. That she needs to dump you as he can hook her up with some players inside.

Assuming your girlfriend actually likes you, I can imagine she may not come away from that experience with a positive opinion of the club or it's bouncer.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The commercial rights holders simply cannot allow external investors, who are largely known, to come in with $500m and instantly have a $1bn asset. That would massively devalue the whole of F1 instantly and have enormous implications to the financing and leveraging of the business.

I agree this is the core of "why" they were turned away. I think most (some of us?) are just pointing out that FOM created a door for entry, Andretti tried to walk through it and was blocked using (in my opinion) bogus reasons vs. the real ones. If the anti-trust angle has any legs, the fact that the door advertised as real, but was actually false might be the focus. To continue the door analogy, I think initially the intent was for it to really be open, but as you call out, they didn't adjust as the valuation grew and just hoped nobody tried to use it prior to the next Concorde agreement which will either place a high (and adjustable) bar or wall it off altogether.

Originally Posted by peebee2

It really doesn’t matter what overthought and verbose nonsense “fans” write in here

I can't help but to read this in my head as said with a tone of disgust. As an "insider" it must be a daily challenge to deal with us "fans". Scum of the earth as we are.

Richard

[Richard C]

Apologies everyone. I am in a bit of a mood today. When is the F1 summer break over?

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I think that GM's part in the initial stages of the partnership are probably just seed money to get the project off the ground. I believe I read that Andretti has already started property hunting or building over here in the UK for the F1 project, and I would imagine that finance for that may have come from GM.

As to GM supply power units, I would imagine that, like any prospective new entry into F1, they have said that they will only supply Andretti initially until they know that they have a proven product.

GM could well be providing some seed funding, although I've seen references to Gainbridge (existing Andretti partner) providing the bulk of it. Let's not forget that GM was not part of the Andretti bid at all until initially and was announced during the evaluation process.

Andretti has a premises in the UK already, made an announcement on it a couple of months ago.

Agree with you on the likelihood of the GM approach, but of course (logically) from an anti-trust point of view, you would think that means that GM is not being denied participation in F1, but that GM is choosing to not participate, as it is only prepared to supply to a team with no entry. If GM was prepared to supply to Williams for example, then it seems to me that GM wouldn't have an anti-trust case at all.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I can't help but to read this in my head as said with a tone of disgust. As an "insider" it must be a daily challenge to deal with us "fans". Scum of the earth as we are.

And this is fundamentally the cause of so many problems.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Actually no. GM was going to be a partner with Andretti on run to 2028. Yes, Andretti would be running another engine in short term out of necessity only. But GM and Andretti were partners. Just like Sauber today is running Ferrari engines but are owned by Audi and will run Audi engines when those come online in 2026.

Completely different situations though. If GM bought Andretti outright and if GM was the entity seeking an entry, then that would be similar to the Audi situation, but that is not the case and although GM may in effect be providing some funding in the initial years (same as a sponsor) the partnership isn't "real" until there's a GM PU in the back of the car, which is the point that FOM made when it said that once that happened, the application would be looked at differently.

Originally Posted by Richard C

What I suspect you are talking about is that GM has no interest in providing F1 engines to ANYONE if Andretti is not in F1. F1 is not "entitled" or should expect GM to just provide engines because they were interested in doing so as part of a partnership with Andretti.

That's exactly what I was referring to and you're right, F1 isn't entitled to GM supply & shouldn't expect GM to supply others initially at least BUT that also means that GM isn't entitled to expect anti-trust protection because it is choosing to only supply a team with no entry. FOM is not barring GM from competing in F1 with its PU, GM is doing so by hitching its wagon to horse not in the race and refusing to consider other existing horses that would guarantee having its wagon in the race in 2028.

Originally Posted by Richard C

Analogy to make my point...

You and your girlfriend show up to the club and ask to come in. The bouncer looks you up and down and says he wouldn't give you the time of day, but looks at your girlfriend and says she looks mighty fine. That she needs to dump you as he can hook her up with some players inside.

Assuming your girlfriend actually likes you, I can imagine she may not come away from that experience with a positive opinion of the club or it's bouncer.

Different situation though, in the Andretti case, to start with there was no "girlfriend" at all, but a French girl had agreed to be paid a fee for a short term and accompany Andretti into the club. During the evaluation process, Andretti caught the eye of "Miss GM", who became his girlfriend & agreed to dance with Andretti later in the night but wouldn't be ready in time to accompany him into the club and past the bouncers.

By the time Andretti was being considered by FOM, the agreement with the French girl had lapsed, so she wasn't on Andretti's arm, and Miss GM was not ready, so Andretti was knocked back by the bouncer but told that once Miss GM was ready, he could come back.

Of course, Miss GM, in the way of pretty girls at clubs the world over, would be let in by the bouncer at any time, either alone or on Andretti's arm.

Originally Posted by Richard C

Apologies everyone. I am in a bit of a mood today. When is the F1 summer break over?

No apologies needed from my point of view Richard, but then being Australian, to foreign ears a discussion between us often sounds like an argument. Yeah - the summer break is dragging on, only 2 weeks since Spa, so we're only half way there.

[Richard C]

I think we are at an impasse regarding the existence or not of an Andretti and GM partnership prior to 2028. All I can do is point to the joint statement from them both in 2023...

https://news.cadillac.com/newsroom.d...-andretti.html

Originally Posted by Tourer

No apologies needed from my point of view Richard, but then being Australian, to foreign ears a discussion between us often sounds like an argument. Yeah - the summer break is dragging on, only 2 weeks since Spa, so we're only half way there.

Richard