[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 21

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Depends on whether the conversation leaders allow those is further back to unlap ourselves

After you, old chap!

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As far as I am aware, there is no rule (nor do I believe that there has ever been one) that states that drivers are only permitted to unlap themselves at certain places on a circuit.

Yes, but it’s sensible to wait till the straight. While Max could have played it safe, I wonder if he even expected Ocon to be there

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

After you, old chap!

That attitude will ever win you a WDC....

[Skam85]

This thread would have been 50 pages (and worse off) if Sprinkles was still around.

[Peter Mallett]

How can you speculate like that when you don't know?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

How can you speculate like that when you don't know?

Hindsight.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, but it’s sensible to wait till the straight. While Max could have played it safe, I wonder if he even expected Ocon to be there

Ocon did try it on the straight. Max defended him, which is why he went to the outside. If Max hadn't defended against Ocon, then Ocon would've been through with minimal time lost to either car.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

You guys respond as if we hadn't had 31 pages of discussion about this before the video. A similar video was already posted earlier. Yes DRS gives him a pace advantages (between 0.4 and 0.7s on this track I reckon). Together with being willing to overdrive the tires (say another 0.3s for a few laps) to prove a point it may seem you're a lot faster while you're maintainable pace is not. Anyone thinks that's Ocon after the pass would've just cleared of needs a reality check.


Now what I did find interesting about the video was that the team did instruct Ocon to let Hamilton pass (which Ocon rightly ignored) however they did not communicate any word of caution for passing the much faster leading car of Verstappen in a safe manner.


Quite telling.




Video is taken off-line btw.

I found this video footage. https://youtu.be/rI4f2u58gug

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Skam85

This thread would have been 50 pages (and worse off) if Sprinkles was still around.

Has Sprnkles gone?

[Peter Mallett]

Who is Sprnkles?

[bella]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As far as I am aware, there is no rule (nor do I believe that there has ever been one) that states that drivers are only permitted to unlap themselves at certain places on a circuit.

max verstappen is like a cabbie. he has his own version of the driving rulebook

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, but it’s sensible to wait till the straight. While Max could have played it safe, I wonder if he even expected Ocon to be there

Well, the answer to that is that Verstappen ought to have expected him to be there, and even if he didn't expect it, he should have actually been aware that he was alongside Ocon.

And if neither of those applied, then IMHO (as an ex-racer) he should not be racing at the top level. I suggest that you watch the Youtube that BJ has just posted (even once should be sufficient) because it clarifies what actually happened.

Ocon went to duck under MV going into Turn 1, but MV blocked him. Ocon then quickly went across to the outside around Turn 1, with MV out-braking Ocon in the process. Ocon maintained his position which gave him the inside line around the exit of the esses whilst still alongside and with his front wheels slightly in front of MV's front wing, and MV then decided to close the door by hitting Ocon.

Having watched this from different camera positions, I am amazed that the stewards applied any penalty to Ocon. Again, IMHO their decision was totally misguided and they should never be re-appointed to be stewards again.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Ocon maintained his position which gave him the inside line around the exit of the esses whilst still alongside and with his front wheels slightly in front of MV's front wing

I know a good optician, but might have the negative side effect of shortening the thread a few pages though....

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I know a good optician, but might have the negative side effect of shortening the thread a few pages though....

I refer the honourable Tenther to my extremely carefully nuanced reply from what seems several geological eras ago...

Originally Posted by Greem

Maybe not in turn 1, but when the two cars were alongside each other in turn 2 Max should not have turned in.

They were both boneheads IMO.

I stand by that position, even after all the discourse.

Wait a minute though. If I haven't changed my opinion, does that mean I'm one of the bad guys?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I know a good optician, but might have the negative side effect of shortening the thread a few pages though....

My apologies. I should have said with Ocon's front wheels just behind MV's front wing. But regardless of that, MV, without any doubt, drove into Ocon - not the other way around.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Greem

I refer the honourable Tenther to my extremely carefully nuanced reply from what seems several geological eras ago...



I stand by that position, even after all the discourse.

Wait a minute though. If I haven't changed my opinion, does that mean I'm one of the bad guys?

I cannot, for the life of me, see what Ocon did wrong. He was quite entitled to attempt to unlap himself, and, from the various camera positions that we have now seen, he performed the operation in a safe way. He cannot and should not be blamed for the actions of MV.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I cannot, for the life of me, see what Ocon did wrong. He was quite entitled to attempt to unlap himself, and, from the various camera positions that we have now seen, he performed the operation in a safe way. He cannot and should not be blamed for the actions of MV.

Various posters have mentioned that Verstappen could have waited for the straight between T3 and T4 to attempt the re-pass; Ocon could also have waited for that to make his pass.

Ocon put his car in a position which was risky *and was entitled to do so*; Verstappen made a risky manoeuvre; both lost out as a result.

If one tweaks the dragon's tail, especially one as predictably unpredictable as Verstappen, one should expect to get burnt.

[S griffin]

Exactly, Ocon was in no hurry, he could have waited till the back straight

[loon]

I'm sure if it had been Vettel instead of Verstappen the reaction of the media would have been that it was completely Vettel's fault, but whatever, it was still very funny!!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Greem

Various posters have mentioned that Verstappen could have waited for the straight between T3 and T4 to attempt the re-pass; Ocon could also have waited for that to make his pass.

Ocon put his car in a position which was risky *and was entitled to do so*; Verstappen made a risky manoeuvre; both lost out as a result.

If one tweaks the dragon's tail, especially one as predictably unpredictable as Verstappen, one should expect to get burnt.

And blamed??!!

Verstappen's choice Verstappen's fault!

[Greem]

At no point have I blamed anyone. They were both culpable for the eventual contact.

You should know by now that I'm generally tediously impartial; it goes with the weekend job (and the day job).

You could replace the word Verstappen with Ocon in your highlighted statement and the sentiment would still be accurate!

Originally Posted by wnut

And blamed??!!

Verstappen's choice Verstappen's fault!

[Peter Mallett]

No good. The point is that Verstapen could have avoided Ocon but he turned in and cost himself the race. *got to keep the post count up.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Greem

Ocon put his car in a position which was risky *and was entitled to do so*; Verstappen made a risky manoeuvre; both lost out as a result.

If one tweaks the dragon's tail, especially one as predictably unpredictable as Verstappen, one should expect to get burnt.

Absolutely. Both lost out indeed.

Verstappen just a tad more though. It was his race to have and his "unpredictability" caused it to slip away.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Greem

At no point have I blamed anyone. They were both culpable for the eventual contact.

You should know by now that I'm generally tediously impartial; it goes with the weekend job (and the day job).

You could replace the word Verstappen with Ocon in your highlighted statement and the sentiment would still be accurate!

Well you have shared blame when Ocon's only action was making a legitimate passing attempt which he and others had completed several times before during the race.

To me there was nothing untoward about Ocon's pass, Max turned into the car alongside him pure and simple - Max's fault no question.

Time to get off the fence here?

[Greem]

If I'd been there in orange overalls I'd have reported the facts. If asked for an opinion I'd have said it was 50/50, a racing incident.

It seems a lot of people agree with that, but hey ho. Both to blame or neither, they both lost out. That's the fact.

Originally Posted by wnut

Well you have shared blame when Ocon's only action was making a legitimate passing attempt which he and others had completed several times before during the race.

To me there was nothing untoward about Ocon's pass, Max turned into the car alongside him pure and simple - Max's fault no question.

Time to get off the fence here?