[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by veeten

Okay, now that the BoP's are now set in both series'

Not yet I think, LMDh BOP still not published for IMSA's final rounds.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Not yet I think, LMDh BOP still not published for IMSA's final rounds.

Yes, Imsa will change each round if need be.

[S griffin]

At least we should hopefully have a clear run to the finish in WEC, so there will be less arguments about who they are favouring

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by veeten

Okay, now that the BoP's are now set in both series' for the run to the finish, there should be very little politics involved. You race what you have, and may the best drivers/team win in their respective category.

Not quite BoP is only set for Lime Rock, Indy test and Road America. They still have ViR, Indy race weekend and Petit after that without BoP and I would expect plenty of politicing and sand around Indy.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by joeb

Yes, Imsa will change each round if need be.

They just follow the spirit the 2023 Sporting Regulations stating:
"An equivalence system named "Balance of Performance" (BoP) applies to cars entered in the Hypercar and LMGTE Am category. The aim of BoP is to allow cars of different engineering designs to compete in the same category. The Endurance Committee will make adjustments to the BoP:
-As provided for in the Technical Regulations

-Through dedicated Endurance Committee decisions". With "frozen" cars what will be said if, for instance, Peugeot win each of the three remaining rounds? To me, it seems that because every team are working hard between two meetings and because BoP is accepted by all, it makes sense that it should be adjusted after each race. Only in one-make and historics series the regulation remains the same at least each year.

[Adam43]

It’s not intended to be a success penalty based on results. If a team does a better job, or lucks into a result, or plays a blinder with strategy then no change.

If the data suggests that the car is inherently better then there is a BoP adjustment. This is hard to judge just on a race by race basis. It might also be changed based on track (see Sebring to Portimao) and the changes already decided for the last three races. Although there are some progressive changes there (e.g. Peugeot), which almost seems like they are trying to collecting data on the changes and how they impact the performance. I’ve just inferred this, but I think it would be clever.

[Gerard C]

I see. Thanks for the clarification and enlightening me, Adam, I got it wrong.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Isn't BoP meant to level all type of difference whatever the origin?

If so, that doesn't seem to be working for Glickenhaus and Vanderwall...

Really, BOP in prototype racing stinks. It's ridiculous. People are claiming that properly engineered Ferrari and Toyota LMHs should be penalised to point that basic cheaper LMDhs can win races against them. A penalty of 30-40kg, as it is, is not enough, you'll need to load nearly 100kg on the best of the LMHs to achieve that, it's absurd.

The World Rally Championship shows how you can have a multi-manufacturer class with a decent set of regulations as a competition without BOP.

Draw up a set of LMP rules somewhere in-between a typical LMH and a typical LMDh and LMP2 let everyone build the best car they can as a engineering competition -- while making sure every homologated engine and chassis has to be available to customer racing teams for a fixed price. How hard can it be?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by RL17

I also think the BOP is skewed in favour of Hypercars verses LMDh and that they should have adjusted the BOP on a platform level.

The ACO had to have their arm twisted to allow "Daytona Prototypes" into their racing at all.

It's self-evident why the ACO would want cars built to their rules to be superior than the American rules. Any manufacturer who wants political favour with the ACO needs to have built a "proper" LMH.

The option was there for all manufacturer teams to spend the money and engineer a proper LMH after all. Imagine if there were not the names "Porsche" or "Cadillac" but just Glickenhaus building a technically inferior LMDh and demanding their car be equalised to the best of the LMHs. See how absurd it sounds?

BOP is necessary in GT3 racing to balance road cars that are completely different, but BOP in prototype racing makes me cross. Surely if Toyota and Ferrari have spent the money to engineer proper "LMP1" cars with traditional LMP1 F1-like development programs, they deserve to be at the front?

I dunno, maybe people will get used to Le Mans & WEC being like IMSA but it is certainly quite the adjustment when we are used to it being a competition like Formula One (at least outside of the GT class).

[JT240Z]

I agree that BoP makes less sense in a spec derived prototype class than in GT. The specs should dictate the design rules. That's the whole purpose of spec class racing. BoP just compensates for poor implementation of the specs.

[broadrun96]

Do you mean technical regs not spec? Spec means something VERY different when it comes to racing

[JT240Z]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Do you mean technical regs not spec? Spec means something VERY different when it comes to racing

What I was meaning was that LMH and LMDh both have certain design specifications that they must abide by. There are defined dimensions, chassis requirements, power limitations and drag coefficients that must be met. You can call them regs but they are specific to the class. Those design requirements define the class.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Do you mean technical regs not spec? Spec means something VERY different when it comes to racing

As JT240Z says there is a spec in terms of power, drag, downforce etc that a homologated LMH or LMDh must meet. That already should make the cars very similar. Having additional ballast and power adjustments on top of that seems unnecessary.

[veeten]

Originally Posted by JT240Z

I agree that BoP makes less sense in a spec derived prototype class than in GT. The specs should dictate the design rules. That's the whole purpose of spec class racing. BoP just compensates for poor implementation of the specs.

Hence what you have in LMP2 & 3, where everything is in a specification rule set. From chassis to power train, the suppliers have been chosen by the rules makers, whereas LMH (FIA) or LMDh (IMSA) are more manufacturer-driven and are more free in those rules.

Past and recent times has proven that they will choose to enter any competition if it is not only financially feasible, but also equitable. Since its introduction, how many have built and entered an LMH? Now, how many have built/building and entering an LMDh? Remember, the LMH rules were constituted by 2020, giving many future entries time to build. Only Toyota and Glickenhaus came prepared, whereas others made "promises" (looking dead at you, Aston Martin... you too, McLaren...) but never delivered the goods.
it's
Now, look at LMDh... After Doonan made his announcement of the upgrade of DPi to include hybrid systems, and later working with both FIA and ACO to direct the rules towards a convergence, sufficient number of manufacturers have moved towards this rules set rather than the other. Why? Because its not only a financial gain, the cars can be entered in both series, as well as Le Mans.

One has to remember, this is not the 80's, nor the 90's,... we are in the third decade of this century, coming out of a pandemic as well as a financial downturn of the likes we haven't seen in quite some time. Many want to go racing, but at the right price range. Even Formula one is figuring this out, where the manufacturers want to be power train suppliers rather than all-up builders. When you can bring in a chassis builder, hybrid engineering, and design the outer body to resemble your trademark look, and still compete in the greatest race in the world, then why not?

[hondafan37]

beautiful!!! They killed the Ferraris with the BOP after Le Mans and now they are banking on it, I love it

[tomcug]

They finished second at Monza, I wouldn't call that getting killed by BOP. Toyotas are just super good both in terms of car design and operationally, it's hard to match them. BOP itself could have been better but wasn't so bad I'd say.

[Toyotats03OUS]

Originally Posted by tomcug

They finished second at Monza, I wouldn't call that getting killed by BOP. Toyotas are just super good both in terms of car design and operationally, it's hard to match them. BOP itself could have been better but wasn't so bad I'd say.

killed, was what they did to Toyota a few day before lemans.

[hondafan37]

BOP now
Toyota 1080 kg and 514 kw
Ferrari 1076 kg and 505 kw
the weight is similar
Why so little power for the Ferrari?
Was it the arrangement to win Le Mans?

[Toyotats03OUS]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

BOP now
Toyota 1080 kg and 514 kw
Ferrari 1076 kg and 505 kw
the weight is similar
Why so little power for the Ferrari?
Was it the arrangement to win Le Mans?

I mean they neuter toyota right before le mans, no warning or consent from any of the teams. so...

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Why so little power for the Ferrari?

Whatever calculations they had done, they decided that Ferrari and Caddy need to have less power than Porsche, Toyota and Peugot. That was especially visible at Monza where Caddy and Ferrari had less than 500 kW. As I said before, BOP wasn't perfect at Monza but I wouldn't suspect the ACO to make Ferrari too slow on purpose. Next year, with lots of on track data available BOP should be more accurate.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Toyotats03OUS

I mean they neuter toyota right before le mans, no warning or consent from any of the teams. so...

obvious and now they neuter the Ferraris so that Toyota wins the championship quietly

[hondafan37]

Hopefully the arrangement has been Le Mans through Monza and Fuji only and they return the 514 kw to the Ferraris and we have a race in Bahreim
In reality they should bring the Toyota 505kw too and we should have a huge and open race in Bahraim

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Hopefully the arrangement has been Le Mans through Monza and Fuji only and they return the 514 kw to the Ferraris and we have a race in Bahreim
In reality they should bring the Toyota 505kw too and we should have a huge and open race in Bahraim

We've know what BoP is for Bahrain since early July:
https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=417
Could change it I suppose, but despite the pre-Le Mans change I think this is unlikely.

Did you factor in that there was less testing and the practice was disrupted so harder for the new teams to get up to speed? I guess it is easy to say whoever does well in any session, qualifying, or the race must have been chosen by the ACO. It's not proof.

Anyway, I thought they were trying to fix it so that Peugeot wins one.

[tomcug]

Thanks for moving BOP messages to their place Adam

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Thanks for moving BOP messages to their place Adam

No problem

Wouldn't want this amazing discourse to be lost in the race thread.