The Future of F3

[NaBUru38]

FIA wants regional Formula 3 tier to return

Originally Posted by FIA Single Seater Commission

We have to manage the number of cars because we cannot have more than 32 or 35 in the European championship, depending on the track.

With 200 or 250 drivers in F4, something is missing.

- o -

2010 Formula 3 Euroseries: 12 drivers
2010 British Formula 3: 20 drivers
2010 German Formula 3: 15 drivers
2010 Italian Formula 3: 24 drivers
2010 European Formula 3 Open: 16 drivers

2010 total: 87 regular F3 drivers, including:

Mortara, Wittmann, Bottas, Sims, Merhi, Vanthoor, Da Costa, Juncadella, Muñoz, Vergne, Calado, Webb, Nasr, Foresti, Brundle, Buller, Nakajima, Dillmann, Abt, Magnussen, Dusseldorp, Rosenqvist, Sorensen, Eriksson, Derani, Ramos, Richelmi, Caldarelli, Ceccon...

- o -

In 2015, the FIA European F3 had 35 drivers and the Euroformula Open had 16 drivers. That';s a total 51 regular drivers.

2015 British MSA Formula: 22 drivers
2015 Italian Formula 4: 25 drivers
2015 ADAC Formula 4: 35 drivers
2015 SMP Formula 4:13 drivers.

2015 total: 95 regular F4 drivers.

That doesn't include dozens of drivers in Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup, NEC and Alps.

[S griffin]

It was a big shame when British F3 ended. It would be good to have it back, but for me it feels too little too late, they should have done something earlier

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

They actively seemed to attempt not to salvage the national F3 championships. Now BRDC F4 has somewhat replaced BF3 (the two signed drivers were impressive in F4, Norris and Leist) and now the FIA could perhaps hurt that series with these plans.

Split it like FR2.0 (NEC for SMP, MSAF, ADAC and Alps for French, Spanish, Italian) and it could work, as a sort of BRDC F4 Formula 3/4 combo (can't call it F3.5 now!)

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

FIA wants regional Formula 3 tier to return

- o -

2010 Formula 3 Euroseries: 12 drivers
2010 British Formula 3: 20 drivers
2010 German Formula 3: 15 drivers
2010 Italian Formula 3: 24 drivers
2010 European Formula 3 Open: 16 drivers

2010 total: 87 regular F3 drivers, including:

Mortara, Wittmann, Bottas, Sims, Merhi, Vanthoor, Da Costa, Juncadella, Muñoz, Vergne, Calado, Webb, Nasr, Foresti, Brundle, Buller, Nakajima, Dillmann, Abt, Magnussen, Dusseldorp, Rosenqvist, Sorensen, Eriksson, Derani, Ramos, Richelmi, Caldarelli, Ceccon...

- o -

In 2015, the FIA European F3 had 35 drivers and the Euroformula Open had 16 drivers. That';s a total 51 regular drivers.

2015 British MSA Formula: 22 drivers
2015 Italian Formula 4: 25 drivers
2015 ADAC Formula 4: 35 drivers
2015 SMP Formula 4:13 drivers.

2015 total: 95 regular F4 drivers.

That doesn't include dozens of drivers in Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup, NEC and Alps.

I wish the FIA would just pick 3 classes and use the superlicence point system to force everybody to race in those classes. As in Formula Ford, Formula 3, F3000 (I don't want Formula Ford or F3000 back, just use those to describe the system ).

Everybody can race Formula Ford, but you can only race F3 if you scored 'license points' in Formula Ford. And you can only race in F3000 if you have scored 'license points' in Formula 3. You can only get a superlicense by getting points in F3, F3000 and testing F1. And finally, you cannot get any points in any other open wheel junior class.

That last sentence is essential, because this would get rid of all these varying types of classes, and make this much more clearer. I mean in the past you had F3 (~200 hp) and basically 1 relevant class with over 200 hp (F3000, somewhere in the 450 hp range). In the past 5 years i've seen Gp2 (600), WSR (500+), F2 (400), Autogp (500+), GP3 (400), FPA (300), Formula master (250) and i'm sure i'm forgetting some. Add series that were supposed to be stand alone series (A1GP, Superleague, Champcar) and it's easy to see that the limited funds available for racing is spread out way to much.

So use the superlicense system to get rid of all these classes, and go for the traditional 3 step ladder ('ff' - 'F3' - 'F3000'). Note: I don't care if the 'f3000' class would be Gp2, World series 3.5, the new F2 or something else. Same for 'F3', don't care if this is F3, WSR, or something else. Imo it is all very similar and in the grand scheme of a junior development ladder it doesnt really matter what to pick.

But anyway, make 3 to 5 regional championships for Formula Ford and F3, and a 'Northern' and 'Southern' F3000 championship. Have 2 to 4 season ending events where only the top 5 to 10 of each regional championship qualifies (and top 15 in the F3000 championships). Like a Masters of Zandvoort, or Macau GP. Heck, if you really wanted to i would think you could make 1 F3000 championship that is well promoted and create a serie where the drivers can actually earn a living and are selected on talent over $ (like Moto2 in Motogp and Nascar xfinity in Nascar). But that would be just a bonus.

Personally, under this setup i'd love to see 'F3' being a Formula Palmer Audi type of serie and 'F3000' a Fia F2 like serie as in 2009-2012.
That would mean 80k pounds for a season of FPA (300 hp) and 200k pound for the final junior step (430-480 hp). That makes it possible for talent to get somewhere with limited budget, while i feel more HP is overrated for learning anyway for the supertalents (many f1 stars didnt race more then ~200 hp anyway before F1).
Add a system where F1 teams are allowed to test additionally as long as the driver is in FPA or F2. That would give drivers with more budget the opportunity to spend that money on testing in F1 and get additional experience. Or they could use the money to get a seat in LMP1/LMP2 obviously.
But i think this last paragraph will be a bridge to far for the FIA and motorsport in general

[S griffin]

Rules out drivers coming from America though. If it ever happens again, which it could

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Rules out drivers coming from America though. If it ever happens again, which it could

Not really. The same structure as i suggested could be used for Japan, South America etc., with in some cases even a regional ''f3000'' championship (like FNippon/Super formula in japan).

The USA could follow this system and implement the same chassis/rules and ladder. But even if they wouldnt (which i could see happening) and the FIA wouldnt give any super licence points to the US feeder system it would still make sense to give super license pionts to Indycar (just like to Lmp1).

[10TENTHS]

They give superlicence points to Indycar and Indy Lights already.

[peebee2]

Carlin out of F3.

On top of Fortec, Double R, Westec, TSport, the Russians, Zeller and Signature.

That's 24 cars gone!

Hitech said to be switching to GP3?

Prema F3 to no longer offer subbed drives as Stroll moves up?

Macau GP uncertain and seemingly in disarray.

Expensive new upgrade kit coming in.

The "future of F3" has never looked so bleak. Very sad.

I know these teams say they will come back, but they actually never wanted to stop - just no customers want to do it.

[10TENTHS]

FIA F3 has 17 drivers this weekend and Euroformula Open has 18. BRDC "F3" uses a different spec of car, that also has 17. Formula 3.5 has ranged from 13-15. GP3 started at 24 but is now at 21. GP2 has ancient retreads scraping in to make 22-car grids.

The European single seater market is in serious trouble.

[bella]

17 cars. ffs.

it's all very well saying 'let the market decide' but no disrespect to the market, most of them haven't started shaving yet and their mums still buy their pants for them. meanwhile, the budgets for two litres and serious f4 are mental, and the next step up is scarier by an order of magnitude. even half a f3 budget is ridiculous.

[Formulahistory]

it's a shame what happens to Carlin in the last 2-3 years...

[10TENTHS]

Originally Posted by Formulahistory

it's a shame what happens to Carlin in the last 2-3 years...

Or nobody wants a seat at the rates they charge.

Originally Posted by bella

even half a f3 budget is ridiculous.

Perhaps the (new) prize money will attract more drivers next year. Fewer races might help cut costs. Some technical changes were already specified: http://www.fiaf3europe.com/2016/08/0...rmance-equity/

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by bella

17 cars. ffs.

it's all very well saying 'let the market decide' but no disrespect to the market, most of them haven't started shaving yet and their mums still buy their pants for them. meanwhile, the budgets for two litres and serious f4 are mental, and the next step up is scarier by an order of magnitude. even half a f3 budget is ridiculous.

Bernie's master plan of "exclusivity" is working brilliantly. The other formulae changed rules to prepare their drivers for F1 and/or it's ladder and they kill off the prospective drivers by choking them with higher costs. I've always hated the American system for being too outdated and retaining their old cars, but they have gotten it right in terms of not following every new trend in Europe. Whether that was by design or by necessity, I don't know.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

FIA F3 has 17 drivers this weekend and Euroformula Open has 18. BRDC "F3" uses a different spec of car, that also has 17. Formula 3.5 has ranged from 13-15. GP3 started at 24 but is now at 21. GP2 has ancient retreads scraping in to make 22-car grids.

The European single seater market is in serious trouble.

And half of those drivers are paying far less than full budgets as teams act in desperation

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

Or nobody wants a seat at the rates they charge.

Are you saying they are owning part of the F3 burlesque club?

[10TENTHS]

Originally Posted by Juntos

Are you saying they are owning part of the F3 burlesque club?

maybe they should throw that in as an extra.

Is it just me or are Stroll's teammates not racing him for position?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

Is it just me or are Stroll's teammates not racing him for position?

No it's not just you and it's been like that all year. Embarrassing.

[Mekola]

If the things you say about the matter are as this, future of great part of minor formulae, not only F3, is very bleak.
And it's sad for me to not to see prospective drivers with little or no money in junior formulas.

[coppice]

Well nearly 3years on, and unless I've missed something , this seems to be the latest thread on British F3 . I have watched the series from Hunt and Pace days , via Piquet and Senna to Hulkenberg and Ricciardo . And how have the mighty fallen - from the 3rd or 4th most important single seater series in the world to a footnote to this weekend's GT meeting.



And that's a damned shame.

[peebee2]

British F3 as such stopped a few years ago now.

Current BRDC F3 isn’t the same and doesn’t actually use F3 cars.

[coppice]

So a 2 litre na. engine and a Tatuus chassis in an F3 championship but it still isn't F3 as such ? Confused . I gave up reading Autosport a few years ago so can you enlighten me about the F3 that , apparently isn't F3 at all , please?

[peebee2]

It’s the Tatuus F4 car with bigger wings and brakes.

[Bcarr6]

F2, F3, F4 are so muddled at the moment..

[coppice]

Yes indeed - because I am an old fart , F2 means an FVA, F3 an MAE, and F4 an Imp engine. Right , time to set off to Oulton, to see the F3 that is ..err.... actually an F4 minus 1 . Or something like that anyway

[S griffin]

It's a shame so many good series have had to die to streamline the ladder