Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

The years that the ATCC ran to Improved Production, Group C and Group A, along with the first four years of the V8 Formula, were all administered by CAMS. That is why they all belong in ATCC history.

CAMS should have never been involved with ANY commercial rights as an ASN, and that's where they made a mistake.

Supercars still ran under CAMS rules, and was still administered by CAMS, as it is still administered by Motorsport Australia now.

There is literally not one lick of factual difference.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by benny41

They might buy those types of cars but it doesnt mean that they will be interested in watching them race.

I'm interested in watching Civic Type Rs, Golf GTIs and Focus STs race! They are proper exciting hatchback cars.

Silhouette Mustangs and Camaros are OK but a bit meh. I won't go out of my way to watch it -- the Adelaide 500 & Bathurst 1000 are OK but the rest of the Supercars series is a non-event...

I seriously do not think the likes of BJR, 888 or (formerly) Prodrive have any particular addiction to the pushrod American V8. They have just come to race where the money is, be that with 4-cylinder A4s, Vectras & Imprezas or 8-cylinder Falcons & Commodores!

[one five five]

Originally Posted by benny41

No direct link ? So none of the teams or drivers competed in the 96 series competed in the 97 series?

The 1996 series was a CAMS run affair, just like every ATCC going back to 1960.
1997 wasn’t, AVESCO was pulling the strings.

Teams and drivers being in common has nothing to do with it. It’s like claiming Larry Perkins and Russell Ingall won the 1997 “Bathurst 1000”.

Originally Posted by benny41

So what should we do ? Not celebrate the history of the drivers cars and teams? Let it all fade into history? Similar to our goldstar series for open wheel drivers?

Celebrate the history of the drivers cars and teams since Supercars was created in 1997? 24 years is a good backlog of tradition to celebrate. They can do it with their own Bathurst as well.

Originally Posted by benny41

To be honest im not really sure why this is such a big issue the cams/supercars/avesco bust up get back together happened over 20 years ago , surely its time to just accept that supercars was the next evolution in the atcc and move on with life

What get back together?

CAMS lost the court case and any power they had in AVESCO, sold their 10% in the company and has been a toothless tiger ever since.

Originally Posted by Mixer

CAMS should have never been involved with ANY commercial rights as an ASN, and that's where they made a mistake.

Supercars still ran under CAMS rules, and was still administered by CAMS, as it is still administered by Motorsport Australia now.

What the hell does whether CAMS handles the marketing of a series or not have to do with this? Who was going to market the series in 1960 when you couldn’t even advertise on cars?

Is it still administered by Motorsport Australia? Another member on here has said for years that Supercars deals directly with the FIA, and CAMS/Motorsport Australia was little more than hired help on race weekends?

[Casper]

Sigh.....no one here gets it which is pretty obvious. The reason for and the underlying framework that Supercars was built on has gone, surely that is obvious but I don't think it is judging by all that is being argued here.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

CAMS lost the court case and any power they had in AVESCO, sold their 10% in the company and has been a toothless tiger ever since.

And I repeat, CAMS as an ASN should never have had commercial interests, just like they should never have owned F4 cars... It's not their place and it creates conflicts of interest that should be avoided.

Originally Posted by one five five

Is it still administered by Motorsport Australia? Another member on here has said for years that Supercars deals directly with the FIA, and CAMS/Motorsport Australia was little more than hired help on race weekends?

This is arbitrary nonsense. At some point Supercar fancied itself as an "international" championship but that doesn't change the fact that all races are sanctioned by MA. Or do you conveniently miss the recent deliberation over the licence of a competitor in a wildcard at Bathurst, which was made by Motorsport Australia, not Supercars?

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

who cares really, the people that want to support Supercars and the direction they are going will.

The history part is for a bunch of old guys to argue over, that really no one under 50 cares about. I love seeing the old muscle cars and group A cars but couldnt give two shits about the ATCC politics.

Till a class comes along that has the support of the majority of big $$ team, this argument about other engines/ cars is a non event.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by Casper

Sigh.....no one here gets it which is pretty obvious. The reason for and the underlying framework that Supercars was built on has gone, surely that is obvious but I don't think it is judging by all that is being argued here.

The framework for the last 10 years has been Spaceframe cars, sedan/coupe bodies, loud V8 engines, over the top aero rear wing and front splitter.

Seems the next generation cars are going to be very similar, spaceframe chassis, coupe bodies, loud V8 engines, smaller front splitter and over the top rear wing. Both a Ford Mustang and Chev Camaro will be raced with other makes invited to race.

Only difference is no factory teams, well every motorsport is suffering this issue as Manufactures have to focus on spending huge r&d money to keep up with the EV revolution. The focus will now move away to concentrate more on teams and drivers vs car brands.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

The framework for the last 10 years has been Spaceframe cars, sedan/coupe bodies, loud V8 engines, over the top aero rear wing and front splitter.

No it wasn't, it was Ford v's Holden in four door family cars. Perhaps my words confused you and Ethos might have been a better choice of words. I am not talking about building cars but the intent of the series which was to have Ford v's Holden and that has long gone along with the idea of using an AUSTRALIAN 4 door family sedan as the basis for the race car. Forget how it was built the fact is what it was based on has gone.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

who cares really, the people that want to support Supercars and the direction they are going will.

Where do you see the class in five years time, what cars will they be racing? I don't care what they raced or what they will be racing next year and as long as it is good racing so be it. They had better work out what they will be racing in five years time or it is going to be very painful for all involved. What direction are they going in because from the outside looking in there seems to be no long term plan.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by Casper

Where do you see the class in five years time, what cars will they be racing? I don't care what they raced or what they will be racing next year and as long as it is good racing so be it. They had better work out what they will be racing in five years time or it is going to be very painful for all involved. What direction are they going in because from the outside looking in there seems to be no long term plan.

But they have direction, 2 door front engine rwd cars with a V8 shoehorned in. Most likely a Ford Mustang and Chev Camaro still. If they go then a ford focus with a V8 slammed in lol. Any body can be stretch over the 2 door chassis within reason. MARC cars proven it is possible to do with different bodies.

Australian car manufacturing is gone, most can be expected now is maybe a bit of brand marketing spend. Thats gonna be hard when our economy size doesn't sell millions of car. The focus now needs to be entertainment for fans and drivers. Most holden fans will follow the Chev Camaro, gee most holden people I know dreamt of a 350 sbc powered HQ Monaro or owned a chev powered commodore.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

The BTCC in the UK is the same though and it hasn't done them any harm. Just because an organisation or person is in the minority doesn't mean they are wrong. Biggest mistake Supercars made (from my distant perspective) was going pay per view in the domestic market.

Right On...BTCC is currently some of the most competitive and thrilling tin top racing on the planet...

[benny41]

Originally Posted by Casper

Where do you see the class in five years time, what cars will they be racing? I don't care what they raced or what they will be racing next year and as long as it is good racing so be it. They had better work out what they will be racing in five years time or it is going to be very painful for all involved. What direction are they going in because from the outside looking in there seems to be no long term plan.

Why do we need to be thinking 5 years ahead right now? Tbat answer will become clearer
isnt the gen 3 rules supposed to at least be 5 - 7 years ? At that time you adapt to whats going to work. Perhaps it will be tcr? Perhaps it will be electric ? Perhaps it will be similar to the current formula already in place? Thats the question that no body knows the answer to right now. a global pandemic isnt really helping this

The proposed gen 3 rules seem to be a good start

Ability to drop a road car body on a fairly generic chassis with or without manafacturer support
the running gear is similar to whats in the cars already
The chassis design appear to be similar to what in place
less grip and less aero
Supposedly cheaper to build

[Casper]

Originally Posted by benny41

Why do we need to be thinking 5 years ahead right now?

That is the sort of thinking that has led to the current situation they are in, no long time viable alternative plan was proposed when they had two years notice or even longer if you go back to when Ford announced the end of the Falcon. SC is a business not a hobby and good business practise is all in the planning.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

But they have direction, 2 door front engine rwd cars with a V8 shoehorned in. Most likely a Ford Mustang and Chev Camaro still. If they go then a ford focus with a V8 slammed in lol. Any body can be stretch over the 2 door chassis within reason. MARC cars proven it is possible to do with different bodies.

And what manufacturer is going to give permission for their Hybrid/2 litre body to have a V8 shoved in it. It would be laughable to say the least. The current Camaro and Mustang are an endangered species according to the latest news out of the US.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by Casper

And what manufacturer is going to give permission for their Hybrid/2 litre body to have a V8 shoved in it. It would be laughable to say the least. The current Camaro and Mustang are an endangered species according to the latest news out of the US.

Wouldnt be any worse than NASCAR, Toyota run a supra body now and camry body previously with a V8.

If manufacturers wont give permission, then just created a silhouette body with no brand on it. The old days are long past, I feel its time to just create a great entertaining product and stick with promoting the drivers and teams vs manufactures.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by Casper

That is the sort of thinking that has led to the current situation they are in, no long time viable alternative plan was proposed when they had two years notice or even longer if you go back to when Ford announced the end of the Falcon. SC is a business not a hobby and good business practise is all in the planning.

It would seem from the outside, that Supercars are going with a focus more on teams and drivers vs pure manufacturer competition. The rules for gen 3 are viable for next 5-7 years. If those models cease to exist, just plonk on a different Ford or GM body shell and go racing.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

It would seem from the outside, that Supercars are going with a focus more on teams and drivers vs pure manufacturer competition. The rules for gen 3 are viable for next 5-7 years. If those models cease to exist, just plonk on a different Ford or GM body shell and go racing.

Yup, GM and Toyota race V8-versions of the Corolla and Cruze in Stockcar Brazil, so it really doesn't seem particularly outlandish to see something similar in Supercars.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A genuine question - obviously there is no such thing as the ATCC as a series any more, so I am assuming when you refer to the 'ATCC status' you are referring to the winner of Supercars being awarded the title of Australian Touring Car Champion?

If that is the case - how many winners are referred to as the Australian Touring Car Champion, as opposed to the Supercars Champion? The series website makes no reference to the ATCC, and Scott McLaughlin only refers to himself as winning the 'Supercars Championship'.

The Supercars champion get the supercars trophy. Then a month later get a message from the post to pick up a parcel that has the atcc trophy in it.

Someone like Mark Skaife, winning the ATCC twice prior to the supercars moniker, would be referred to as a 5 time supercars/atcc champ.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

It would seem from the outside, that Supercars are going with a focus more on teams and drivers vs pure manufacturer competition. The rules for gen 3 are viable for next 5-7 years. If those models cease to exist, just plonk on a different Ford or GM body shell and go racing.

Problem solved, we can all sit back and relax now. GM literally will not have a shell as their European sedans are no longer GM and Ford may continue sedan production but who knows for how much longer. In essence you are correct, any sedan body can be used if the manufacturer allows it.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by Casper

Problem solved, we can all sit back and relax now. GM literally will not have a shell as their European sedans are no longer GM and Ford may continue sedan production but who knows for how much longer. In essence you are correct, any sedan body can be used if the manufacturer allows it.

My research shows GM currently has this lineup of cars in US

- Chev Sonic
- Chev Malibu
- Chev Impala
- Chev Camaro
- Cadillac Ct4
- Cadillac CT5

Ford have the following
- Ford Focus (Aust)
- Ford Mustang (Aust)
- Ford Fusion (USA)

So still different options available if worst came to worse. I suspect in 5 years time, a clearer picture will present on what happens after Gen3. Maybe a generic body that doesnt represent any manufactuer (like formula type cars)

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

a dirt late model (US class raced in Australia as well)



an australia super sedan raced on dirt.

[Compromised]

A generic body would be awesome.

Cheaper

True aerodynamic parity

Body style wouldn't dictate chassis geometry.

No risk of alienating manufacturers. There isn't any.

Focus on driver/team. No more Falcon/Commodore means increasingly less fans following the car, especially ones they can't buy.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

so people are complaining because they have rights to the ATCC awarding. Lol that is like the most minor issue in the sport.

Actually, it's the biggest thing.

It validates the class and put in context what is being done and what competitors accomplish.

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Give TCR the ATCC title, will it change anything?

Absolutely. It changes how everything is seen, particularly from prospective competitor.

Do your history. The historical links are a huge factor. The two easiest recent examples would be looking at TCR UK/BTCC and Indycar racing.

TCR UK failed in the UK despite whatever strengths even though the cars are the same, because the BTCC title is of greater prestige due to the historical links.

CART eventually finished because it didn't have the Indy 500. It was a series that was effectively Formula 1.1, and it finished for no other reason than it didn't have the Indy 500 (A race in which American motorsport, including nascar) revolves around.

To put it in further context. If Supercars didn't have ATCC status, Peter Brock would be irrelevant.

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

What regulations would you propose that would remotely interest supercar fans? TCR, nope no way grocery cars. GT3, nope to expensive to race all season. NASCAR? Hell maybe it would work now they are being engineered more road going.

This type of comment is why car racing in this country limited.

Calling it a "grocery car" (Or as derp hero SVG said on radio some time ago "hairdressers car"). It's all fun and games to attempt to diminsh it that way, but all it does is show up how lightweight your own interest in racing is.

What is a grocery/hairdressers car? Well, it's just a car. Why would you and others (incl SVG) diminish it? Well, it's because your interest overall in car racing isn't really of substance.

You know what else is a grocery car?...Wait for it...A Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon are also grocery cars. Yes they are!

They are. They might've had a 5lt V8 for racing purposes, but that's it. They were representation of the bog standard 3-3.8lt cars. It's bizarre to me how other fans don't get that.

I didn't say anything before. But now you said this, I'll bring up your speedway fandom.

Speedway is lightweight. It's also a classic example of how lightweight supercars will bell. Speedway is held during the summer (Away from the AFL/NRL/Supercars season). It's on during the night (prime time), and is a greater spectacle than anything supercars could offer 5x over.

Yet, it's completely irrelevant amongst the Australian public. No one cares to even complain about it. Irrelevant.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by benny41

They might buy those types of cars but it doesnt mean that they will be interested in watching them race.

Supercars fans, maybe. Car racing fans are interested.

Originally Posted by benny41

I dont get the part about manufacturer support? The race on sunday sell on monday is absolutely dead , so why does it matter if the car is avaliable to buy?

Manufacturer support validates and/or legitimises the series.

Originally Posted by benny41

So a series shouldn't evolve? The worlds moved on from where it was in 1993.

Absolutely. The problem with supercars is that their rules are designed to keep things as they were in 1993. Despite the two reason for its existance don't care and exist anymore.

Originally Posted by benny41

I would think there are some pretty obvious links with the ATCC and the current supercars championship regardless of the rule set applied being different.

N there isn't, bro. Refer to the historical evidence of Indycar racing.

Originally Posted by benny41

Should Nascar not celebrate its history because the cars are no longer stock cars?

Nascar is a classic example of a community/industry that involves car racing, but don't actually like it.

Originally Posted by Mixer

By your circular and idiotic argument, Supercars doesn't "belong" as the home of the ATCC, but then neither does Improved Production, Australian Group C, or Australian Group A, as these were different rule sets the same competitors moved to over time, to compete for the ATCC - EXACTLY as Supercars did, starting in 1993.

And you know, outlasted most of those other rule sets combined.

No point in referring to one five five as idiotic when you don't know your history.

For clarification, the name Supercars was for marketing purposes and was to replace the "touring car" part. Supercars isn't actually anything, it's just a name.

Supercars isn't a rule set. The cars racing under the supercars name has been Group 3A, Project Blueprint, Cotf, Gen 2, and now Gen 3.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

TCR UK failed in the UK despite whatever strengths even though the cars are the same, because the BTCC title is of greater prestige due to the historical links.

I can't say I agree with that statement. TCR UK struggled because it was an alternative series to BTCC. If the BTCC was to adopt TCR regulations, then TCR would be a success in the UK overnight.

What prevents ATCC from adopting TCR regulations?