[Rules] The FIA - what's occurring there?

[flatlandsman]

I do think there are some things to take into account.

Lewis and Sulayem have history and Lewis clearly has no time for the man, I also feel Lewis is doing a little virtue signalling to serve this cause. Nothing really wrong with that per se as he has an axe to grind.

Also Sulayem has lived his entire life a billionaire, he knows nothing of the real outside world so was probably making a flippant remark with less knowledge than some, it is certainly true this music contains a huge amount of swearing and attitude towards a lot of people that is awful, too much for most peoples ears and he is right to make the point that drivers should not be doing it where possible.

For Lewis to take that as a smite against black people for me a little pathetic sorry.

[Tourer]

Max pushes back against the FIA for penalising him by saying very little in the FIA press conference and then staged his own press conference outside later.

Lewis & Lando take Max's side in the FIA press conference.

Really feels like MBS in particular, & the FIA in general is turning a molehill into a mountain here and urinating into the wind - just all seems utterly pointless.

Maybe, being a "man in white dress" MBS really HAS had little exposure to the levels of swearing in the western world these days - TV, movies etc. all feature more than used to be the case but then general life does too (although, as an Australian, I've been told before that we tend to swear a lot compared to some other countries). Regardless though, it seems a strange hill to want to die on and I don't think that handing out penalties is the smart way to go at all - makes it all seem so pettifogging and "jobsworth".

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Really feels like MBS in particular, & the FIA in general is turning a molehill into a mountain here and urinating into the wind - just all seems utterly pointless.

It is interesting which battles MBS seems to decide to fight. And I think for some of the reasons mentions earlier, he might be clueless as to why he doesn't get much traction.

I can imagine that in some ways he is very politically savvy but in others completely inept.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Normally I'd agree with the drivers here. Mic up a football player during a match and you won't get anything better.

However, that isn't what happened here. Max swore during a press conference and was asked not to. It wasn't heat of the moment. It wasn't a high pressure incident. He just called his car sh*t. He then tried to parrot the excellent Vettel speech about drivers being held to too high a standard (in terms of language), which was completely out of context.

Press conferences are designed purely to be on TV/Socials and broadcast able. By doing what he did, he made it unboradcastable. This isn't like a race where they can just choose too not play that bit of radio and nobody would notice. He was asked politely not to swear and then had an incoherent rant about it.

Swearing in the car: no problem. This is what happens under pressure
Swearing in a press conference: you're just being childish. You can go a few minutes without swearing.

Similar to what Tourer said, I'm Scottish. We swear a lot. It's what we do. But I manage not to swear in work meetings, because I'm a grown up.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Normally I'd agree with the drivers here. Mic up a football player during a match and you won't get anything better.

However, that isn't what happened here. Max swore during a press conference and was asked not to. It wasn't heat of the moment. It wasn't a high pressure incident. He just called his car sh*t. He then tried to parrot the excellent Vettel speech about drivers being held to too high a standard (in terms of language), which was completely out of context.

Press conferences are designed purely to be on TV/Socials and broadcast able. By doing what he did, he made it unboradcastable. This isn't like a race where they can just choose too not play that bit of radio and nobody would notice. He was asked politely not to swear and then had an incoherent rant about it.

Swearing in the car: no problem. This is what happens under pressure
Swearing in a press conference: you're just being childish. You can go a few minutes without swearing.

Similar to what Tourer said, I'm Scottish. We swear a lot. It's what we do. But I manage not to swear in work meetings, because I'm a grown up.

With you 100% on this. For me it was clearly Max demonstrating that he hasn't entirely got to grips with being 'adult' and responsible just yet..... I don't tend to swear in company but I can let rip when I'm on my own. My son is a potty-mouth but he wouldn't swear in company he doesn't know very well as he has the discipline to avoid that.

[chillibowl]

There is of course a child friendly broadcast if anyone is genuinely that worried about people swearing on television.

Censoring drivers, whether it’s over language choice or their beliefs on social issues, is not the way to deal with things imo.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

There is of course a child friendly broadcast if anyone is genuinely that worried about people swearing on television.

The majority of countries have laws about broadcasting swearing before certain times. Max actions make his interview unusable.

It's not nothing to do with censorship and just about being a grown up.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

There is of course a child friendly broadcast if anyone is genuinely that worried about people swearing on television.

Censoring drivers, whether it’s over language choice or their beliefs on social issues, is not the way to deal with things imo.

I'm not really thinking about censoring drivers or worrying about children hearing something they shouldn't, I'm thinking about what it says about the speaker. For my part, it makes him look a bit of a twonk.

[chillibowl]

Put it on a delay, bleep it out, and make it usable then. They have the technology!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Put it on a delay, bleep it out, and make it usable then. They have the technology!

This is not legal in a lot of countries. You cannot just bleep out swearing if you know it's already there.

He's being a child, frankly.

[chillibowl]

If that is true, then how have they been broadcasting races in those places all these past years then?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The majority of countries have laws about broadcasting swearing before certain times. Max actions make his interview unusable.

It's not nothing to do with censorship and just about being a grown up.

Many countries do have such laws as you say - but that's why broadcasters use short delay methodology (usually 7 seconds) and bleep any language that laws make unacceptable.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Put it on a delay, bleep it out, and make it usable then. They have the technology!

Spot on

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This is not legal in a lot of countries. You cannot just bleep out swearing if you know it's already there.

He's being a child, frankly.

Sorry, but that's just rubbish - the practice of bleeping out swearing is completely legal and accepted.

Totally "get" that you don't like Max or at least don't like how he's handling this (I disagree with you for the record) but how about we not simply make stuff up to support a view?

[Tourer]

Petty penalties may hasten Max's departure from F1.

Must admit that when they announced the penalty against Carlos, I did wonder if the FIA had decreed some kind of crack down, when viewed in concert with Max's penalty for swearing in a press conference.

Yes, I know that other drivers have been pinged previously for crossing a "live" track but I also think that not enough allowance for circumstances is made by stewards at times. For sure, crossing a live track CAN be extremely dangerous, and I must admit that I cringe at times when they do it (shades of Tom Pryce) but crossing a track under red flag conditions is VERY different, AND the section of track he was on was after the pit lane entry, so no cars would come through there AND he was able to wait at the pit entry for a gap in the slow moving car train.

Just feels like the FIA (or maybe it's just the prez) is over-playing its hand here.

[Skam85]

Considering how much of a golden egg Drive to Survive has been for F1 and the FIA, which repeatedly uses F and C bombs, to make Max do community service for saying one of the words you hear about 47 times an episode is nothing short of hilarious.

Props to Lewis for backing him up too.

[Richard C]

I think there is shared blame here. I think it's valid to call out Max (or whoever) for maybe considering using more appropriate language in planned interviews. I don't think it's about "being an adult", etc. but more about professional behavior. In that labelling foul language as inappropriate (generally) is an external judgment being placed on someone. Who is to say who is right? But again, he is in a professional setting and the interviews are planned. I think in that professional setting, it's much more clear as to "what is expected".

While in-car comments are not really part of the discussion, I am fine with whatever language they use on the radio. Some outbursts (regardless of language) is not helpful to the driver or team, but that is another topic. In short, we are spying in on nominally "private" conversations. It is up to the TV director to pick and choose radio transmissions. I think maybe the only exception is something like F1TV in which you can listen in to driver radio. I don't know if that is 100% unfiltered (i.e. ALL audio it broadcast with team not being able to turn it off if they want). It seems like everything is available in real time for broadcast via in-car view. Anyhow, I tend to think... let them say what they want on the radio. For the live radio (in-car view) just set expectation that language might be rough.

My solution for this would be to put in place a broadcast delay/deferred live/profanity delay, or whatever you call it in place for the planned media interviews. While mentioned earlier that his might be illegal, I can't imagine any reason it would be and would love to see examples. I mean the broadcasts are already edited while "live" by what they choose to show the viewer (both visual and audio), so why would beeping profanity be any different than that? Podium celebrations, cool down room, etc. might be a slightly different beast that may or may not be good targets for a delay.

If I were FOM/FIA, I would impress upon the drivers to try to keep it clean and professional in specific scenarios. That just because there might be a delay that can bleep out audio, don't rely upon it. That it is a last resort option. They can't expect drivers to 100% not let something occasionally fly. I think if they work to partner with drivers they can prevent drivers from feeling they are being censored. Negative comments on F1 partners like Pirelli would also be a tough nut to crack. They just need to find a way to let the drivers express themselves even if some controls are put in place. Right now it just feels heavy handed.

I think MBS has attacked this in a way that might make sense if those you are trying to control are both fully under your thumb and also disposable to you. You don't like my rules, well then no problem, I will find someone who will! That might work if you are controlling the "commoners", but when the drivers are very much the stars, this (public lashing) is the wrong approach. The drivers are NOT disposable. Especially when it is so easy for someone like Max to equally troll back to the FIA (like was done this weekend). This is why I place more blame on MBS for what I could say is ham-handed/clumsy handling of this (among other things he touches).

Richard

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Considering how much of a golden egg Drive to Survive has been for F1 and the FIA, which repeatedly uses F and C bombs, to make Max do community service for saying one of the words you hear about 47 times an episode is nothing short of hilarious.

Props to Lewis for backing him up too.

The way that swearing is edited in to the maximum and highlighted in Drive To Survive was the first thing I thought of as well.It has nearly been used to show how “modern and cool” F1 is.
All that being said they are adults and no doubt converse often in their work place without swearing so it shouldn’t be an insurmountable problem for them to stop.
However Max’s penalty was just stupid.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Totally "get" that you don't like Max or at least don't like how he's handling this (I disagree with you for the record) but how about we not simply make stuff up to support a view?

Completely disagree with this, as I've been rather enjoying Max on camera recently and think he's come over very well. But he was acting like a spoilt child.

I love that, with authority, you say this is made up. Meanwhile in the UK this is precisely the case. The bleep exists for live delays and situations where it's not possible to completely cut out the swearing (although muting also occurs). However, as defined by Ofcom, you can't just take stuff with swearing and play it willy-nilly with bleeps and say it's ok. You're expected to edit out the entire section of the swearing unless it's required for context or unavoidable for broadcasting. We even have rules on maximum number of swear words in X minutes of broadcasting - something our panel shows regularly get heavy editing for when broadcast. I'm very sorry that you don't like this and think it's made up.

Someone else said well theres child content for F1, and that's what they should watch. But if everyone acted like Max then the child content for F1 would have literally no driver interviews because they all thing they're so cool and edgy because they said a bad word.

Maybe he should just trying being a grown up and it'd have caused much less fuss. Now he's created a situation for himself to manage when he should be concentrating on a world championship - something which doesn't look certain for him for the first time in a while. All because he wanted to be an edge lord.

Max is going to make a therapist extremely rich one day.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I love that, with authority, you say this is made up. Meanwhile in the UK this is precisely the case. The bleep exists for live delays and situations where it's not possible to completely cut out the swearing (although muting also occurs). However, as defined by Ofcom, you can't just take stuff with swearing and play it willy-nilly with bleeps and say it's ok. You're expected to edit out the entire section of the swearing unless it's required for context or unavoidable for broadcasting. We even have rules on maximum number of swear words in X minutes of broadcasting - something our panel shows regularly get heavy editing for when broadcast. I'm very sorry that you don't like this and think it's made up.

So - NOT a case of "This is not legal in a lot of countries" as you said - but you claim that the use of one swear word, in context, in a media conference, available on YouTube but not broadcast on terrestrial TV, would not be legal in the UK - so one country rather than "a lot of countries".

However, the OfCom Offensive Language Guidelines do make allowance for context but also appear to only impact broadcast television and radio - although there may be other guidelines it has for such as YouTube or streaming services (but I doubt it, because the "watershed" broadcast time is controlled by the viewer on all those, rather than by the entity making the material available).

Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion on Max and his position on this but let's not make stuff up or wildly overstate a situation to support a viewpoint. Then again, this IS the interwebz so making stuff up and overstating probably fits.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Tourer

However, the OfCom Offensive Language Guidelines do make allowance for context but also appear to only impact broadcast television and radio

And as we know, Formula 1 does not appear on broadcast television or radio, of course.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

And as we know, Formula 1 does not appear on broadcast television or radio, of course.

Glad we cleared that up.

Well the media conferences don't, which is what triggered this FIA penalty.

All good.

In the meantime, the GPDA is going to discuss, reach a consensus (got the feeling from Singapore that the drivers were supportive of Max) and talk to the FIA about it.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

However, the OfCom Offensive Language Guidelines do make allowance for context...

I was in a bit of a foul mode today, but after looking at the document and the detailed language specifics on pages 2-4 made me laugh and really cheered me up quite a bit! I think I learned a few new insults!

Richard

[Derwent]

If we lose Max and Jos, it will be no loss to the sport. Lots of people willing to take his job!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tourer

However, the OfCom Offensive Language Guidelines do make allowance for context but also appear to only impact broadcast television and radio - although there may be other guidelines it has for such as YouTube or streaming services (but I doubt it, because the "watershed" broadcast time is controlled by the viewer on all those, rather than by the entity making the material available).

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! And the document you link is not OfCom's guidelines, but ITV's guidelines to producers that make reference to OfCom. If anyone is interested in OfCom's take - The OfCom Broadcasting Code can be found here - https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-an...roadcast-code/ It covers On-Demand broadcasts too, and the part that relates to acceptable language is in Section Two. "broadcasters must ensure that material which may cause offence is justified by the context (see meaning of “context” below). Such material may include, but is not limited to, offensive language, [...] Appropriate information should also be broadcast where it would assist in avoiding or minimising offence." "Context includes (but is not limited to): [...] the time of broadcast what other programmes are scheduled before and after the programme or programmes concerned [...] the likely size and composition of the potential audience and likely expectation of the audience;" Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I was in a bit of a foul mode today, but after looking at the document and the detailed language specifics on pages 2-4 made me laugh and really cheered me up quite a bit! I think I learned a few new insults!

Richard

Same here - the more I read it, the more I laughed. There are some pearlers in there!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Derwent

If we lose Max and Jos, it will be no loss to the sport. Lots of people willing to take his job!

I think your onto something. I say replace them all. Best bet would be some robots. Appropriately clean and sterile. Same for the broadcast crew and pundits. I do think the broadcast robots need to remain appropriately "shouty" however. But we can then have robots interviewing robots.

Richard