Le Mans Series 2007

[Hammerdown]

Well, yes, I have to agree. Although I've never seen any ALMS live footage (only the podcasts) I listen to The radio and that's fantastic. The LMS streaming coverage is lacklustre and the commentary is about as exciting as watching paint dry!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

But they are in a Global Market.

Ducking out = Leaving!

Audi was not in the LMS in 06. And have clearly stated why they are hesitant of entering in 07. Why is Peugeot not racing at Sebring even though they will be there during that time frame?!! Audi races in the ALMS because of ROI. And money is very much on the minds at VW A.G. at this time. Its the tail wagging the dog in this case. If they were so hot to contest with Audi they would!!!

L.P.

ps..

The ALMS P1 class is a joke, sad but true.

That will reflect badly on the R10, the car will be a laughing stock.

Joest will be in Europe testing the R10, the LMS will take a huge step forward on and off the track, to stay away leaves Audi and the R10 with very little credibility.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

I thought Audi was not competing in the LMS as the spectors market was not to what Audis customers are? No need to race, if potential customes wont buy Audi street cars.

All we've seen is a quote that is open to interpretation, not a definitive statement.

Audi race at Le Mans, thats in Europe.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Nordic

Audi already spend a huge amount of money in Europe racing in the DTM against Merc, who are in the same upper market place as Audi. Maybe it cannot justify a second expensive race series when its main rival would be a lesser brand.

Don't Audi compete directly against Peugeot with the A2, A3 and A4, particularly base diesel models and rep/company cars?

Both Audi and Peugeot are working on high performance and executive diesel road cars, competing against each other in the LMS would be an ideal way to promote this technology, something they cannot do in the DTM.

Audi also competed against Peugeot in Group B rallying and at Pikes Peak, and have gone up against 'lesser' brands in supertouring for many years.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by JAG

The ALMS P1 class is a joke, sad but true.

That will reflect badly on the R10, the car will be a laughing stock.

Joest will be in Europe testing the R10, the LMS will take a huge step forward on and off the track, to stay away leaves Audi and the R10 with very little credibility.

I don't see how you can call the R10 a laughing stock, regardless of what goes on around it. The vehicle is a superlative engineering triumph, irrespective of the rules it runs on. Don't take that away from it.

You mention Audi running at Le Mans and thus in Europe as if the European nature of the LMS was an objection of Audi's. Their problem was with the TV coverage etc. of the LMS. Le Mans does not suffer from those issues.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by JAG

Don't Audi compete directly against Peugeot with the A2, A3 and A4, particularly base diesel models and rep/company cars?

Both Audi and Peugeot are working on high performance and executive diesel road cars, competing against each other in the LMS would be an ideal way to promote this technology, something they cannot do in the DTM.

Audi also competed against Peugeot in Group B rallying and at Pikes Peak, and have gone up against 'lesser' brands in supertouring for many years.

They do and did, but given the choice of racing against merc in a high profile Europe wide series that is well promoted has live TV coverage, big name sponsors with high profile ex F1 drivers and good grids or abandon that to race in a series with less that 10 races per year, is poorly promoted (I know if Audi do compete, that would change), against a brand that is not a primium one, I am sorry to say I know what I would choose, and its not the LMs sorry to say.

I fully accept Audi has the power to change that, but to switch from the DTM would mean that series folded in its current form, Audi would then face a massive backlash in its home country and from fans of the format.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Nordic

I fully accept Audi has the power to change that, but to switch from the DTM would mean that series folded in its current form, Audi would then face a massive backlash in its home country and from fans of the format.

Is the DTM so weak that Audi pulling out would put it at risk? Could be

It did almost happen in about 1993 when Opel and Audi pulled out leaving only Mercedes. Then Alfa came in and Mercedes agreed to underwrite the series by fielding 3 two car teams and Alfa did the same as I recall and that kept it going but Alfa were in danger of beating Mercedes and who had to pull out all the stops to retain credibiity.

This seems to indicate that a series can be strong if a manufacturer wants it to be so. If Audi and Peugeot both commit to LMS it could become a very strong series with the right promotion.

I agree that the 5 race format of long races has many budgetary advantages and this is why I think the 6th race in Brazil would take some selling to the entrants but the LMS and FIA should be dovetailed to allow people if not teams to do both.

[Graham Goodwin]

Any series that relies so dramatically on the support of just a couple of manufacturers will always be in that position - It seems we hear almost every year of potential problems if one pulls out.

[Bentley03]

There is an assumption being made (unless I've missed something) that Audi would need to drop one of their current programmes in order to free up the budget to race in the LMS.

I actually think it more likely that the budget to race in the LMS is already in place and that it has been costed into their 2007 race programme all along. The posturing and lateness of the announcement of their 2007 race programme has, in my opinion, nothing to do with the availability of funds, but has far more to do with ensuring maximum return for their outlay. Dyson's move to Porsche and the LMP2 class in the ALMS has put a spanner in the works and that, in conjunction with the new hierarchy at VAG, has forced them to re-examine their 2007 programme entirely. Le Mans, potentially, becomes their only meaningful race with the R10 in 2007.

The importance of an LMS campaign, therefore, from the point of view of result credibility is, if anything, augmented by the LMP1 situation in the ALMS. I think they intend to be there, but want to push for the absolute maximum exposure they can muster before announcing.

[Graham Goodwin]

And again the advantage for Audi is that they get the opportunity to show the European market just how good their diesel technology is - The issues as I understand it are the quality of the TV package and that of event promotion. I agree on both but anyone attempting to decry the quality of racing thus far in the Le Mans Series surely does dso from a position of either ignorance or predjudice.

[cptkablamo]

All I've seen and heard is that Audi are not fans of the promotional side of LMS. Lets not forget that we have heard very little offiical information from Audi regarding their 2007 plans - and after their threats mid way through 2006 and the lack of competition in the ALMS, this competition maybe, unfortunatley less attractive than some may think. I think they are also waiting on what the ALMS has to offer and certain promises from both the ALMS and LMS before they commit to their 07 campaigns.

As for the Peugeot, as a new car, never competed they would be apprehensive to let it compete against the Audi - especially when there is no clear advantage in terms of reputation or sales in NA. Are they scared - maybe, this is a cautious approach - not wanting to get publically embarrassed if the car turns out to be a dog - I don't particularly like the approach but then again, its not my race team.

As for the race in Brazil - I think we would see very few teams there without some sort of massive incentive - as almost everyone has limited funds - one only has to look at the Pescarolo stories lately to see that...sponsors are pulling out and they have finished 2nd at Le Mans 2 years in a row...

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

As for the Peugeot, as a new car, never competed they would be apprehensive to let it compete against the Audi - especially when there is no clear advantage in terms of reputation or sales in NA. Are they scared - maybe, this is a cautious approach - not wanting to get publically embarrassed if the car turns out to be a dog - I don't particularly like the approach but then again, its not my race team.

cpt I think you made a very good point here. as when was the last time peugeot was in endurance, sports car or even F1 racing? May take a while to get back into the game.

Plus Peugeot has no market presents in the US nor well they ever.

As for the race in Brazil - I think we would see very few teams there without some sort of massive incentive - as almost everyone has limited funds - one only has to look at the Pescarolo stories lately to see that...sponsors are pulling out and they have finished 2nd at Le Mans 2 years in a row...

Sponsors are looking for ROI, return on investment. Not just to be part of racing. Sponsors look at how much they will make back ASAP.

Most corporations who sponsor sporting events, will put an additional $1.70 into promotor for every $1.00 spent on sponsorship to the team or event.

Sponsors dont want long term results, they want results NOW. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday and Tuesday.

Many smaller sponsors ( equimpent companies) are going on the contigancy sponsorship. YOU put their decal on YOUR race car. and YOU BUY their prodocuts for YOUR race car. WHEN YOU WIN, you will get credit for more equipment or some money.

Seond and third place may get you something too in MAJOR races, but not the average race.

Potential sponsors just dont though money at teams and say have at it.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Nordic

They do and did, but given the choice of racing against merc in a high profile Europe wide series that is well promoted has live TV coverage, big name sponsors with high profile ex F1 drivers and good grids or abandon that to race in a series with less that 10 races per year, is poorly promoted (I know if Audi do compete, that would change), against a brand that is not a primium one, I am sorry to say I know what I would choose, and its not the LMs sorry to say.

I fully accept Audi has the power to change that, but to switch from the DTM would mean that series folded in its current form, Audi would then face a massive backlash in its home country and from fans of the format.

It's not one or the other, they're complementary.

The fact the DTM would fold if Audi pulled out maybe tells you all you need to know about that sereis. On the surface all is fine, scratch beneath and it's a heavily subsidised ego trip for Mercedes!

Audi have come out with strong words about factory competition stepping up, those words are very shallow if they sidestep the very competitors they were calling out, especially when they have the teams, drivers and resources to put together a campaign, without sacrificing the ALMS and DTM campaigns.

[The Badger]

Any word on what Binnie are doing yet ?

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Any word on what Binnie are doing yet ?

i had good thoughts last nitgh(sorry im having a brainfart i have forgotten how to spell nite), that binnie ran a lola B06/10 with the zytek 4.0 V8.

that however though was me with ma fantasy ALMS grid, binnie will probably be doing the same as what they did this year, lola B05/40 with the zytek V8.

[Ranald]

Some good Zytek news has been posted on DSC today. Trevor Foster has confirmed that they have sold an 07S LMP1 car to "a very good team, with good drivers and good funding in place."
Apparently the team will race in the LMS and at Le Mans. Whether Le Mans is confirmed or not I don't know but it might give us an idea of who the team is.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

anyone attempting to decry the quality of racing thus far in the Le Mans Series surely does dso from a position of either ignorance or predjudice.

Would I be that anyone? I actually have no problem with the quality of racing, I do have with the quality of the series itself. To be precise I do consider it a good pro-am series with interesting cars etc but an arena for manufacturer involvement or a series that would draw thousands of spectators on track? No way. It simply lacks a good return for the investment made. Why? The list is endless: limited and poorly thought out schedule (Brazil?!!), bad TV globally but most significantly in Germany, bad attendance, almost zero media appeal, unfriendly race format plus no control in the running of the series (in the stark contrast with the DTM).

Your argument seems to be that Audi funding for promotion and TV will sort things out. However this can only address some of the weaknesses and besides I can hardly imagine VAG committing this kind of money in the first place. If anything news from Skoda (Rallying) and Seat (WTCC) suggest that the total racing budget of the group will be significantly reduced. Sure, LMS might get lucky if a local importer/a team takes up the cost or in that the ALMS is struggling in P1 so the program might get transferred. But this is hardly a vote of confidence more so a marriage of convenience. Also I would imagine that crunching competition in network TV with some exotic (to Americans), eco friendly technology has its appeal.

You might think I am only saying this because I hate sportscars and you would wrong. GG can search DSC's subscriber base, he will find a member called Go_For_Pole being there for a couple of years now. And believe me it is not for my journo work, sportscars barely register on the radar here in Greece (except from Mans of course). Speaking of which, my happiest on track moment of 2006 was the half hour I have spent leaning on the guardrail under the Dunlop Bridge at 3 o clock in the morning. As my photographer said, as good as it can ever get. Enjoy!

[Graham Goodwin]

Nope I'm not saying that Audi (or peugeot) marketing bucks would make everything OK - Just that that is the area that Audi sources have publicly mentioned as a weakness.

As for media unfriendliness - Not so, I believe any motorsport event can be covered in an entertaining fashion by TV and radio - If 6 hour races are so unfriendly for media how would you explain the ability of some broadcasters to do so well in 10, 12 and 24 hour races?

In car footage of top level sportscar racing with massive closing speeds and close racing is I believe as good as it gets in TV terms when done properly. (see highlights of the ALMS Lime rock race this past season for confirmation of that!)

There is a lack of imagination around in Europe on the promotion of sportscar racing, a seeming reluctance to invest in the future, even where that applies to methodology with a proven record of success - event radio for instance should be an absolute must-have in endurance racing both for the spectators at the track and to build a fan base elsewhere and it would be remarkably inexpensive to provide over a full season. - The ALMS position light system is another no-brainer in my opinion.

Endurance racing does need a different approach to coverage from some other disciplines but that's a challenge for, and not a barrier to, entertaining coverage.

[Go_For_Pole]

True, ALMS is doing things the right way. Still there is an upper limit in their popularity, sportscar racing can never be mainstream. You know as well as everybody here that it took ALMS years of investment and hard work along the way to reach there. Where is LMS compared to them? What have they done to deserve the presence of major factory programs? And at the end of the day is it only money or a lack of ability that prevents them from making a step forward? I think not, hence the "crap" comment that caused such a stir

[Graham Goodwin]

Still not fair comment though - the comment implied a lack of quality in any area - That's patently not the case.

As for sportscar racing never becoming mainstream? Why not? mainstream appeal happens through a combination of effort, investment and quality of product - It can't simply be directly linked in inverse proportion to the time period of the action or else we would never have seen rallying (or for that matter cricket) in the mainstream.

What's needed is more attention to detail and packaging and a truly inclusive effort (manufacturers, circuits, promoters and privateers) to build something together.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

Your argument seems to be that Audi funding for promotion and TV will sort things out. However this can only address some of the weaknesses and besides I can hardly imagine VAG committing this kind of money in the first place.

I think Audi and Mercedes do fund promotion of DTM. Despite the promotion and "succes" of DTM they fail to attract new manufacturers.

[old man]

As Go_for_pole admits to being a journalist can he explain the lack of hard copy media interest? Is it because the racing is not exciting? Is it because the cars are not familiar? Is it because there are no "name" drivers? Is it because of a lack of technical depth? Is it because the public don't understand it?

Is it perhaps because it is not well reported?

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I think Audi and Mercedes do fund promotion of DTM.

Yes they do but even their hefty funds would do nothing if the product they try to sell is not attractive to the general public. Have you guys noticed how they try to keep their qualifying and race format (with improvements here and there) as close to that of F1? Do you think this is because they are obsessed with F1? Certainly not, it is because this way it is much easier for the casual viewer to understand DTM and follow it. Because it is roughly like F1 but better. The casual viewer when confronted with a complex format like endurance racing with multi classes is much more likely to go away than make an effort to understand. Sure a good presentation like in ALMS could make some of them to stay but still the majority will go. And you certainly need the casual viewer in order to reach mainstream, at least as understand mainstream.

Originally Posted by FIRE

Despite the promotion and "succes" of DTM they fail to attract new manufacturers.

So what? Is success measured in attendances & ratings or in the presence of a third manufacturer? I would think the former is more important.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by old man

As Go_for_pole admits to being a journalist can he explain the lack of hard copy media interest? Is it because the racing is not exciting? Is it because the cars are not familiar? Is it because there are no "name" drivers? Is it because of a lack of technical depth? Is it because the public don't understand it?

Is it perhaps because it is not well reported?

I am not really the right person to discuss this, here in rally-crazy Greece everything else besides F1 and WRC do not excite people. It is an uncomfortable situation for us but what can you do?

[old man]

What makes them rally crazy? Is it the implied danger?