Indycar News & Rumors.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I'm going to ask an oddball question here since there doesn't seem an appropriate thread for 5 pages.

The windshield seems to give a high level of coverage, If a driver wanted to, could they use an open-face helmet?

[broadrun96]

NO

[TheMightyM]

Racer is reporting that the Detroit race likely will move from Belle Isle back to downtown Detroit beginning in 2023.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

The windshield seems to give a high level of coverage, If a driver wanted to, could they use an open-face helmet?

Short answer - no.

Slightly longer answer - the regulations require a helmet to include a visor that can repel fire for at least 45 seconds. In addition to this, accepting that not all debris comes from directly in front, the top of the visor must include a reinforcement panel to protect the driver from small object impacts.

[rwintle]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Racer is reporting that the Detroit race likely will move from Belle Isle back to downtown Detroit beginning in 2023.

I have no idea what to think about this. Is this good? Bad? Belle Isle's certainly had its issues with track degradation at times, but will city streets be better?

I have many other questions. If a dog and a monkey got in a fight, which would win? How long is a piece of string? Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego? (etc.)

[macdaddy]

Examining the earliest stages of a proposed layout for a downtown GP in Detroit...

And I don't like it. There's a tunnel under Cobo Hall which is being ignored. This would be fun for racing. The arena, ballpark, and football stadium are clustered together within walking distance from the proposed track. Including this revitalized part of the city on the TV coverage would do wonders for Detroit.

Racing along Woodward Ave would showcase the Fox Theatre and Comerica Park. The parking lots for the stadium would provide ample room for paddocks and seating. And right across the street from the ballpark is the football stadium...

"Ford Field". Maybe that explains it a little bit? They'd rather race past GM's headquarters than by Ford's stadium.

But I'm somewhat familiar with downtown Detroit and (IMO) this layout is terrible. I doesn't represent the city and, as far as racing goes, it doesn't seem like an interesting track.

Having said that, I realize that the layout they've proposed is in its very early stages. But it's way off base. I also realize that they can't shut down some major streets, and the international border crossing (Detroit/Windsor Tunnel) must remain open. Yet this layout is shorter than the previous F1 layout, and the city has made monumental changes to this district since then with the construction of three major sporting venues just steps away from the proposed layout. (Mike Illich, RIP and thank you).

Just my three cents' worth.

[broadrun96]

Feels like that's the only option, doubt they will get to renew with the state. There's been push back for years about racing in a park.

And of course it's 5 days after the season so start the engine builder rumors. Apparently Canal+ mentioned Toyota considering Indy in 2024 with the "hybrid" regs.

[macdaddy]

Having diverse setups, like what IndyCar enjoyed years ago, would be best for the sport and all of its OEM's.

Differing chassis, tires, and engines.

Lola/Goodyear/Ford?
Reynard/Firestone/Honda?

This lead to great competition. I loved the Tire Wars.

[broadrun96]

Yet that's exactly what caused its failure as CART. The only reason for the current success is the limited budget requirements. Remove that and start a tire or chassis war and we're right back where Indy vs CART was and worse off.


Plus who else could build a chassis any longer? I'd venture no one has the available time for more with LMDh and new P2s of those still existing in the market

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Yet that's exactly what caused its failure as CART. The only reason for the current success is the limited budget requirements. Remove that and start a tire or chassis war and we're right back where Indy vs CART was and worse off.

Not necessarily. Because of Covid, the new chassis has been delayed and is ''supposed'' to come online in 2024, so why not open up chassis manufacturing but keep the costs within a specified budget?

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Plus who else could build a chassis any longer? I'd venture no one has the available time for more with LMDh and new P2s of those still existing in the market

Who else could build a chassis? McLaren.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Not necessarily. Because of Covid, the new chassis has been delayed and is ''supposed'' to come online in 2024, so why not open up chassis manufacturing but keep the costs within a specified budget?


That's worked so well with LMP2 right now, restricted budget and development don't go hand in hand. You'd end up with one chassis standing tall.


Who else could build a chassis? McLaren.

Do they have the extra capacity to build and service 15-20 cars? I don't know but would be interesting to find out

Not trying to be the it won't work guy but history has shown it won't. The sole reason, and it has been mentioned by every team from Penske to Top Gun is the costs are low so better for the sponsors. And teams still need more than one main sponsor a year

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Do they have the extra capacity to build and service 15-20 cars? I don't know but would be interesting to find out

Not trying to be the it won't work guy but history has shown it won't. The sole reason, and it has been mentioned by every team from Penske to Top Gun is the costs are low so better for the sponsors. And teams still need more than one main sponsor a year

If McLaren were to build chassis, I would have thought it would require a facility at Indianapolis not too dissimilar to the one Dallara already has.


History shows CART eventually failed but it wasn't due to multiple chassis, there were may other factors.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If McLaren were to build chassis, I would have thought it would require a facility at Indianapolis not too dissimilar to the one Dallara already has.


History shows CART eventually failed but it wasn't due to multiple chassis, there were may other factors.

The chassis isn't my complaint, you can't have them without what did it in, escalating costs. With 2 builders building a spec chassis one will end up better and everyone will go there unless the other is allowed to develop. And that's more money

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

The chassis isn't my complaint, you can't have them without what did it in, escalating costs. With 2 builders building a spec chassis one will end up better and everyone will go there unless the other is allowed to develop. And that's more money

The new IndyCar isn't due until 2024 and F1 are introducing their new car next year. So in the interim, it will be interesting to see how F1 teams fare with developing the new car and the budget cap. Brute-force spending won’t be possible when it comes to development work.

[bjohnsonsmith]

More on Toyota.

https://racer.com/2021/09/29/toyota-...-manufacturer/

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

Examining the earliest stages of a proposed layout for a downtown GP in Detroit...

And I don't like it. There's a tunnel under Cobo Hall which is being ignored. This would be fun for racing. The arena, ballpark, and football stadium are clustered together within walking distance from the proposed track. Including this revitalized part of the city on the TV coverage would do wonders for Detroit.

Racing along Woodward Ave would showcase the Fox Theatre and Comerica Park. The parking lots for the stadium would provide ample room for paddocks and seating. And right across the street from the ballpark is the football stadium...

"Ford Field". Maybe that explains it a little bit? They'd rather race past GM's headquarters than by Ford's stadium.

But I'm somewhat familiar with downtown Detroit and (IMO) this layout is terrible. I doesn't represent the city and, as far as racing goes, it doesn't seem like an interesting track.

Having said that, I realize that the layout they've proposed is in its very early stages. But it's way off base. I also realize that they can't shut down some major streets, and the international border crossing (Detroit/Windsor Tunnel) must remain open. Yet this layout is shorter than the previous F1 layout, and the city has made monumental changes to this district since then with the construction of three major sporting venues just steps away from the proposed layout. (Mike Illich, RIP and thank you).

Just my three cents' worth.

One thing that jumps out at me looking at a satellite map of the city was that the location of the pits. I completely understand why it is where it is — it’s going to be in a big surface parking lot, which would also have lots of space for transporter parking. There don’t look to be many alternatives in downtown Detroit, so I’d take that element of the design as pretty fixed.

[macdaddy]

Detroit has so much more to showcase than the Renaissance Centre (GM Headquarters) and the riverfront. Here's an outline of the proposed track that shows just some of what they're missing...

Another picture of F1's 1988 layout, (Long before the downtown revitalization and new stadiums were built). This was almost 2.5 miles with 17 corners.

Going through a tunnel would be something unique. Changing the layout to travel through the revitalized district would be great for the city. (Downtown Detroit of today is very much different than it was before Mike Illich).

Might even be a way to make Ford think about rejoining? They'd get alot of TV time. Make the early versions of the new layout bypass their stadium.

Lots of room (excuse the pun) in the parking lots outside Comerica Park to paddock and pit.

The more I look at this proposed layout, the more I dislike it.

[broadrun96]

I'm fairly certain we could all pay Ford for their program in cash and they still would pass. The Ford family seems to really really hate open wheel racing

Not disagreeing with the poor design, never been so I'll take the word of others. But longer street course has to be better than short lap, yes each seat would see the car fewer times around BUT can we all agree traffic on a street course can suck. Longer track can help with that a bit, the engineers often cause it with everyone wanting to be last out but you can't regulate that out

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

The chassis isn't my complaint, you can't have them without what did it in, escalating costs. With 2 builders building a spec chassis one will end up better and everyone will go there unless the other is allowed to develop. And that's more money

After the split everyone ended running Lola's and Cosworth's so it was effectively less than what it is now.
That is not what caused the demise.
Losing major players like Penske and Ganassi to the IRL was a major, splitting the resources and the talent.
All of that created the issues.
And mending the fences and the response of the public audience has taken ages.
But if you get division away from the central them you will go back through it all again.

Sure you had the Swift at the end, which was a great car, but it wasn't an oval car..... And that was never going to work while your theme was based around the Indy 500. Going road racing only would pit you against IMSA.
You have to have ovals in series. If you 18 races a 1/3rd should be ovals or short ovals.
So Milwaukee, Richmond, Iowa, Texas, Gateway and Indy are essential. Throw in a Homestead or a New Hampshire and youre getting there.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

After the split everyone ended running Lola's and Cosworth's so it was effectively less than what it is now.

Not quite as every team’s cars were quite different. Not like spec cars at all.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Not quite as every team’s cars were quite different. Not like spec cars at all.

I didn't say they were all spec cars, simply that the series was dependent on one manufacturer, and it wasn't long before all ran engines from one OEM, which is even more conformity than what you have now.

Harking back to what something was 20+ years earlier, while wonderfully romantic an idea is too far divorced from the reality of the last decade and this present decade.
the only variety in racing is now carried out by OEM's.
WEC and IMSA are examples of that, and F1.

Don't get me wrong.
I loved CART in the 80's and 90's. Some of the worlds best racing ever.
But trying to go back to emulate the 90's is a mistake.
Look what happened back in the 90's when the Lola was markedly inferior to the Reynard and how that impacted the Lola teams and finances.

If we get another engine OEM then great.
But understand that commonality of chassis and tires is what all modern formula are doing to reduce costs and its helping Indycar rebuild when the last thing it needs is an increase in team and equipment costs.

[peebee2]

I agree with you, we’re not going back.

My point was just that all teams running one chassis and the series mandating a supplier of spec parts is very different. I know most fans don’t see the difference, but it is enormous.

In those days the chassis may have come from one company but the cars were very different to each other with numerous (largely unseen) suppliers and mods.

[broadrun96]

Yes, please feel free to ignore the direct statements by Penske and others at the time, and recently, that they were leaving CART because the costs were insane and no one cared about the series. So yes, them leaving left a shell but they left because the costs outweighed the series success.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Apparently the F1 track being built for the Miami Grand Prix could see action from IndyCar or NASCAR.


https://racer.com/2021/10/01/miami-f...hedules-align/

[S griffin]

Why not? Keeps backup options if F1 doesn’t last long there