BNT NZSuperTourer 2015

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Finally we seem to have some movement and in a good way, how about we leave the muck-raking and nastiness behind and look ahead?

Better ban Joe then.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Blackpearl

As you would when you have sold up a bad series. So mark tell me this people have no sponsorship foggy is running his car in the Mahindra eduraunce, maverick never appeared has cepe sold his car? good idea bad control series.

Good idea actively sabotaged by members of the governing body.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Better ban Joe then.

was only in response to Marks raking attempt......... gonna ban him too ??

[Woolley]

There are times I'd be happy to ban 2/3rds of you... it's a good thing I'm basically nice.

But I would urge you to think before posting. It's possible to have reasonable discussion without mud-slinging, trolling and chucking insults. I don't want to be having to remove whole swathes of bad-tempered and generally offensive posts again, and I'll quickly run out of patience if it goes that way.

[Goat Boy]

I thought we were having a pretty constructive discussion up until that last post (and the first for a while) by SJ.

[BlueBlood]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Good idea actively sabotaged by members of the governing body.

But it wasn't a good idea.
It alienated half of the fans and shortened the careers of a whole bunch of well known kiwi drivers.
It cost too much for our economy.

The fans voted with their feet, and the sponsors soon followed.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by BlueBlood

But it wasn't a good idea.
It alienated half of the fans and shortened the careers of a whole bunch of well known kiwi drivers.
It cost too much for our economy.

The fans voted with their feet, and the sponsors soon followed.

Care to debate your statement in a civil fashion BlueBlood?

[Goat Boy]

It was a good idea, what wasn't a good idea was the governing body deciding to contravene its brief by directly investing in a rival series that wasn't even off the ground at that point. What was needed was 100% buy-in, TMC had been the problem and ST was formed because of that problem. As it happened, TMC went away anyway but the actions of MSNZ should have been to try and find a compromise between those that went to ST and those that didn't, rather than actively trying to bring about the demise of a series that had 19 brand new shiny cars with a bunch of talented drivers from the outset.

Pretty sure if they'd done that we would have one decent series now instead of none.

[adbutler]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

It was a good idea, what wasn't a good idea was the governing body deciding to contravene its brief by directly investing in a rival series that wasn't even off the ground at that point. What was needed was 100% buy-in, TMC had been the problem and ST was formed because of that problem. As it happened, TMC went away anyway but the actions of MSNZ should have been to try and find a compromise between those that went to ST and those that didn't, rather than actively trying to bring about the demise of a series that had 19 brand new shiny cars with a bunch of talented drivers from the outset.

Pretty sure if they'd done that we would have one decent series now instead of none.

Nicely put Goat Boy.

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

It was a good idea, what wasn't a good idea was the governing body deciding to contravene its brief by directly investing in a rival series that wasn't even off the ground at that point. What was needed was 100% buy-in, TMC had been the problem and ST was formed because of that problem. As it happened, TMC went away anyway but the actions of MSNZ should have been to try and find a compromise between those that went to ST and those that didn't, rather than actively trying to bring about the demise of a series that had 19 brand new shiny cars with a bunch of talented drivers from the outset.

Pretty sure if they'd done that we would have one decent series now instead of none.

Sooooo spot on GB

[promax]

Originally Posted by BlueBlood

The fans voted with their feet, and the sponsors soon followed.

spot on!

[promax]

Originally Posted by BlueBlood

and shortened the careers of a whole bunch of well known kiwi drivers.

a point that's not often bought up. 30-40 drivers mia because of all this mess. I'm not sure why anyone would think.. what has gone on over the past few years.. has been a positive for the sport?

here's to moving forward!

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by promax

a point that's not often bought up. 30-40 drivers mia because of all this mess. I'm not sure why anyone would think.. what has gone on over the past few years.. has been a positive for the sport?

here's to moving forward!

Not sure anyone was saying that it has been positive PM. Note my point above - it could have been very positive though.

Yes moving forward is great but I guess the proof will be in how many cars come out to play next season.

[adbutler]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Yes moving forward is great but I guess the proof will be in how many cars come out to play next season.

I wonder what will constitute a success? I'm picking they'll be wanting at least 10-12 ST's and 5 or 6 TLX's.

[Ugy]

About time people woke up that it's all over Red Rover, time to bring the curtain down.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Ugy

About time people woke up that it's all over Red Rover, time to bring the curtain down.

What is? V8 racing in NZ?

[BlueBlood]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Care to debate your statement in a civil fashion BlueBlood?

Not sure which part you wish to debate MP?

Point one: I'm a Ford fan, chev powered falcons doesn't get me to the track.

Point 2: Can I still see McIntyre, Manuel, Booth, Bell etc racing V8's at Puke?
(Don't bother bringing up PM's recent shared drive)

Point 3: shrinking grids and crowds, can that fact be debated?

[NZSTfan]

Not wanting to step into your personal debate with Mr Petch, but i'm going too.

Do you think it was solely V8ST's fault for diminishing crowds and sponsors etc?

I'd go as far as to say that ST gave the sport the shot in the arm in needed. But what happened after that is what killed the sport in my view. And that is a dysfunctional and biased (some would say corrupted) sporting body, and a handful of people sticking their toes into the ground so much with the TLX concept, that there was no turning back. And before anyone has a go, this is not a stab at the TLX concept.

How can 19 ST owners (or whatever the numbers are) vs 3 or 4 TLX owners be a reflection on "But it wasn't a good idea. Yes it was, it was just poorly managed
It alienated half of the fans and shortened the careers of a whole bunch of well known kiwi drivers. Your opinion, but how many drivers have graduated into better things from the NZV8TC category? None from what I can tell. ST provided good things for a number of drivers. However, you do have a point with regards to the likes of Booth, Bell, JMac etc, but do you see them looking at buying into the TLX program? (honest question as I don't know the answer)
It cost too much for our economy". Really? it is well documented that both new spec cars cost about the same to run. Just ask the Varneys, which I have.

And anyway, isn't all of this a waste of time now? Are we not supposed to be looking forward to a new season where the two sides get on well with each other, and race each other? So in response to Ugy, No I don't think its over red rover. It is clear that what we have seen in the last 4 seasons is over, but the next season could be the pill that fixes up our sick state of affairs.

Personally I am looking forward to what the 15/16 season is likely to offer. And I've just heard that enduros will be part of it....great news

[Goat Boy]

Yes, before a couple of familiar mud-slingers came back into the fray we were actually having a civilised conversation.

If variety is what you're after, you will probably get some modicum of that with the combined class; if you want to see the "stars" back in their cars I would suggest that without Mr Noonan's structure you might just see some of them next season, however there are those like Andy Booth who now has a small child and a decent job and is probably not all that fixated on a return any time soon from comments he made to me a while ago.

As to the "crowds" for what they were worth, I think it will take a demonstrably decent series of races with large grids before they come back - me included.

In the meantime, why don't we all just look forward and see how things shape up for the coming season?

[BlueBlood]

Why is it that you cant have a different opinion in here without being called a "mud slinger"?

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Not wanting to step into your personal debate with Mr Petch, but i'm going too.

Do you think it was solely V8ST's fault for diminishing crowds and sponsors etc?

I'd go as far as to say that ST gave the sport the shot in the arm in needed. But what happened after that is what killed the sport in my view. And that is a dysfunctional and biased (some would say corrupted) sporting body, and a handful of people sticking their toes into the ground so much with the TLX concept, that there was no turning back. And before anyone has a go, this is not a stab at the TLX concept.

How can 19 ST owners (or whatever the numbers are) vs 3 or 4 TLX owners be a reflection on "But it wasn't a good idea. Yes it was, it was just poorly managed
It alienated half of the fans and shortened the careers of a whole bunch of well known kiwi drivers. Your opinion, but how many drivers have graduated into better things from the NZV8TC category? None from what I can tell. ST provided good things for a number of drivers. However, you do have a point with regards to the likes of Booth, Bell, JMac etc, but do you see them looking at buying into the TLX program? (honest question as I don't know the answer)
It cost too much for our economy". Really? it is well documented that both new spec cars cost about the same to run. Just ask the Varneys, which I have.

And anyway, isn't all of this a waste of time now? Are we not supposed to be looking forward to a new season where the two sides get on well with each other, and race each other? So in response to Ugy, No I don't think its over red rover. It is clear that what we have seen in the last 4 seasons is over, but the next season could be the pill that fixes up our sick state of affairs.

Personally I am looking forward to what the 15/16 season is likely to offer. And I've just heard that enduros will be part of it....great news

It was poorley mangaged from the start, mr petch himself got some billit uprights made to supply from over seas and they were rubbish, mad rush to find some one in n to do it, lack of rules and enforcements, crap shocks mr petch. mark hired someone to doucument the build and never paid as promised. mark also supplied the steering wheel and seat and was dead against any one using anything else, don't use those seats as most have had glass removed to fit in the car. the owners have no money to care as its going back to how it started. didn't work then wont work now.

some of you don't know the full bullshit storey

[Worsel]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Finally we seem to have some movement and in a good way, how about we leave the muck-raking and nastiness behind and look ahead?

Good idea Woolley, does anybody care anymore about who shafted who, I'm sure there was fault on eveybody's side. Its too late now, the crowds have moved on, the Holden & Fords will soon no longer be made, there will never be parity while some people are involved. Let the dogs fight it out in court if they must, let's not continue to make it the sport's loss.

Within the v8's there are some super cars and drivers, I want to see and hear them again. We have already started to see what can happen if the fields are larger, who cares if there are different classes within the same race.

We are in the entertainment business and there are a number of other classes growing in popularity and it will take quite an effort to get the "v8's" acceptable to the public's attention again.

Let's move forward on this, cause I love the sound of an angry V8!!!!!

[socram]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

As to the "crowds" for what they were worth, I think it will take a demonstrably decent series of races with large grids before they come back - me included.

In the meantime, why don't we all just look forward and see how things shape up for the coming season?

Totally agree. That means a package or structure, as no one grid is going to reverse the decline in a screaming hurry. It will take a year or two at the very minimum, even after a structure is in place and is working positively for the drivers, team owners and even the officials, before the general public will return and even then, there is no way we'll ever see the crowds of yesteryear again, as that boat sailed long ago.

There are a multitude of reasons for that and no one person or sector is to blame. It is a sign of the times.

Even some GP's have a miserably small number of spectators. One off events such as the Goodwood Festival of speed with massive numbers of spectators - or even their Festival, which is 'only' a Hillclimb, are world class events that NZ couldn't hope to match in a million years.

Our sights need to be set at a modest level and currently, anything with over about 5,000 spectators is going to be rated in the top 5 events of the year. The trick is to find what will get the numbers higher on a regular basis at events in different parts of the country. If that is impossible, so be it.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by BlueBlood

Why is it that you cant have a different opinion in here without being called a "mud slinger"?

I don't think you are a mud-slinger, I think you raised valid points that were important to you as a fan and you probably are not alone. I agreed with them up to a point but then I have never been entirely sold on "platform racing" in any case, be it V8SC, DTM or NASCAR. I always preferred Group A racing in its heyday.

The mud-slingers are the same old names that have been slinging it for years.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Blackpearl

It was poorley mangaged from the start, mr petch himself got some billit uprights made to supply from over seas and they were rubbish, mad rush to find some one in n to do it, lack of rules and enforcements, crap shocks mr petch. mark hired someone to doucument the build and never paid as promised. mark also supplied the steering wheel and seat and was dead against any one using anything else, don't use those seats as most have had glass removed to fit in the car. the owners have no money to care as its going back to how it started. didn't work then wont work now.

some of you don't know the full bullshit storey

I think you are looking at technicalities rather than concept, there no doubt were some areas that could have been improved upon and I think you will find Mark is the first to admit it. But the fans would not have been aware of any of that stuff anyway.

The thing that seemed to cause the teams to stay away was the way the series was run after it was sold. Speaking from the outside anyway.