[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

That was a non-hybrid that was adapted. It was only a 2MJ system. I mean I guess you could do that, but you couldn't just whip a 6 or 8 MJ hybrid system out of a car now. They're so deeply incorporated that they just don't work without it.

It still has an issue that even if the cars did work like that, that the cost targets are out by an order of magnitude. The ACO also requires manufacturers to run a hybrid, so the IMSA cars still wouldn't be legal until they added it, so still wouldn't come to Le Mans.

We've got two series trying to achieve two different sets of goals with one set of regulations. That's VERY hard.

That was a 3.5 MJ rated system, but your argument stands. Audi were able to at times to deactivate their systems when they suspected that they were having issues with them in '12-14, and it didn't harm the performance of their cars. The lower MJ rating (3.5 in '12-13 and 2 in '14) probably helped, as well as the fact that the 2012/13 cars were designed to be converted back and forth into hybrid or non-hybrid specs. It was probably harder to re-decal the car than it was to swap out/in hybrid systems back then.

Now, the systems are so hard-wired into the cars that it'd be extremely difficult to just delete the hybrid system. That for the future might depend on if the ACO continues to allow non-hybrid cars beyond 2020.

Also, when you have two goals trying to be met with the same regs, that's impossible to do without some major compromises on both sides. And right now, I don't see the ACO and IMSA budging.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

And..? Just because a manufacturer wasn't involved in meetings doesn't mean they can't find the rules interesting enough to join.

In future maybe, but currently they're not finding the rules interesting enough to send some guy into a meeting every few weeks.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

We've got two series trying to achieve two different sets of goals with one set of regulations. That's VERY hard.

Agreed, and especially because the main parameter the two series disagree on is the price point. IMSA doesn't think prototype racing is sustainable in the U.S. at the cost level the ACO/WEC are targeting. That's just really hard to get around.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by deggis

In future maybe, but currently they're not finding the rules interesting enough to send some guy into a meeting every few weeks.

The rules haven't even been defined yet, there's only been a basic outline of them. Nobody's going to commit before they've gotten clearer details whether they're interested at this point or not.

[joeb]

I've got a question. If you are shooting for a budget cap for the class, are we talking car cost + running cost for a season? And if so how does that cost translate between imsa and wec?

For instance, if you look at this years schedule and ran a P2 in both series, which would cost you more? Imsa has more running time, so does that automatically make it more expensive? Or is the double Le mans this season change that equation? and if the target is a $30 million budget for the proposed P1, who would that be for? Wec or imsa?

[chernaudi]

One thing that might help IMSA should they adopt the new top class rules in some form is that they're a regional series vs the WEC which is a world championship. That should in theory at least cut down on costs, but I'm not sure how much if at all in practice.

[Articus]

Just some food for thought from Doug Fehan on the Corvette program and why they currently don't participate in WEC.

I do think that Lexus/TRD North America, and Toyota Japan / TMG are two "silos" as Fehan calls it, which both would find value in jointly developing a prototype that could race IMSA and WEC.

Similar relationship and incentive with Acura/HPD, and Honda Japan.

Come on! Are we really using the ex pseudo Mazda lola LMP and wondering why that car never went to Le Mans???

Is there any chance we see WEC involvement from Corvette in the foreseeable future, with GTE Pro so strong?
“The real answer is that General Motors is a huge conglomerate of brands, divisions and companies. They all run separately but are owned and run by the same people, there are just completely different silos. It’s the same in North America and Asia. This programme is driven by Chevrolet of North America, and we have a limited budget, and it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for the North American budget to support things going on in other countries.

“If we could get some of those other countries to participate, and find the value in it, then I’m sure we could run a global programme in the WEC. But that would take separate GM companies coming together, which isn’t easy to do. Le Mans is the exception because it’s the holy grail of all of motorsport. Would we like to do WEC as well? Of course, but we can’t burden North America financially with that. And, by the way, we are also limited in the number of Corvettes we can make and we have a much greater demand in Europe than we can meet.”

[TF110]

I think this makes too much sense to happen. It's the sad part about this all. How long will IMSA cater to 'cheap' manufacturers and stick with aging cars? They did this with DP and then with LMPC. I'm not saying it's not good for their business, but things like holding onto cars that are a decade old while the rest of the endurance on the world stage moves on frustrates me being in America. Both sides are at fault, but these new rules are not going to be hard on manufacturers. You want a dpi like car then make it with the same chassis constructor you have now (unless you're Mazda/Riley). The rules leave this open. And with the way the rules look to be headed, you won't need to worry too much about aerodynamics as it'll come from underneath. If IMSA doesn't jump on this with manufacturers like Ford saying it's a good idea, then you know they're being stubborn to save money or there's someone whispering in their ear and padding their pockets.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by joeb

I've got a question. If you are shooting for a budget cap for the class, are we talking car cost + running cost for a season? And if so how does that cost translate between imsa and wec?

For instance, if you look at this years schedule and ran a P2 in both series, which would cost you more? Imsa has more running time, so does that automatically make it more expensive? Or is the double Le mans this season change that equation? and if the target is a $30 million budget for the proposed P1, who would that be for? Wec or imsa?

At this point there's too many moving pieces for just about anyone to say except Porsche and Ford. You've got so many issues with entry and marketing fees, freight, staff travel and weekend schedules, actual amount of testing, etc. that I doubt anyone outside could even estimate. Really all we have to go on is Atherton saying it looks too expensive for what they want.

But then again, who knows where any of this actually sits in 3 or 4 years anyways. The manufacturer landscape and the importance of hybrids could easily change wholesale by then, lord knows LMP1 went from expanding to 4 manufacturers to contracting to nearly 0 in that time frame. It's barely worth worrying about, especially compared to how absolutely awful these regulations are to me.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by joeb

I've got a question. If you are shooting for a budget cap for the class, are we talking car cost + running cost for a season? And if so how does that cost translate between imsa and wec?

For instance, if you look at this years schedule and ran a P2 in both series, which would cost you more? Imsa has more running time, so does that automatically make it more expensive? Or is the double Le mans this season change that equation? and if the target is a $30 million budget for the proposed P1, who would that be for? Wec or imsa?

Me. I require $30 million a year budget for operations. Aco really need to work on lowering it though.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

At this point there's too many moving pieces for just about anyone to say except Porsche and Ford. You've got so many issues with entry and marketing fees, freight, staff travel and weekend schedules, actual amount of testing, etc. that I doubt anyone outside could even estimate. Really all we have to go on is Atherton saying it looks too expensive for what they want.

But then again, who knows where any of this actually sits in 3 or 4 years anyways. The manufacturer landscape and the importance of hybrids could easily change wholesale by then, lord knows LMP1 went from expanding to 4 manufacturers to contracting to nearly 0 in that time frame. It's barely worth worrying about, especially compared to how absolutely awful these regulations are to me.

In this article from s365 I think Scott Sharp says the budget for DPI is $6 - 7.5 million this season. So that could be the baseline budget levels DPI are working with.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

The rules haven't even been defined yet, there's only been a basic outline of them. Nobody's going to commit before they've gotten clearer details whether they're interested at this point or not.

What... Being part of the meetings doesn't mean committing, but it means OEM gets 1st hand info and gets to make their own proposals. And currently 5 or 6 named OEMs are doing that while GM is not doing.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by joeb

In this article from s365 I think Scott Sharp says the budget for DPI is $6 - 7.5 million this season. So that could be the baseline budget levels DPI are working with.

Forgot the link...?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by deggis

Forgot the link...?

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/c...rd-commitment/

Oops

And now that I think about it, I wonder if that is a 2 car budget?

[Articus]

I think we will know a heck a lot more come the end of the year. Anyone wanting to participate in 2020 will need a car on the drawing board as early as this summer and as late as the end of the year.

[kvenom]

So it seems like the current DPi manufacturers are very much against the new hypercar formula. Only Acura were sort of open to it, albeit with even more cost reduction and a "base spec chassis" which could be covered with Acura bodywork.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by joeb

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/c...rd-commitment/

Oops

And now that I think about it, I wonder if that is a 2 car budget?

Wrong link? You said "Scott Sharp says the budget for DPI is $6 - 7.5 million", I'm looking for that part.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

Wrong link? You said "Scott Sharp says the budget for DPI is $6 - 7.5 million", I'm looking for that part.

I was looking for it too.

[Akrapovic]

It'd be good to have the source, but I think Joeb is pretty trustworthy so I'll take it

I'd imagine if Sharp is paying $7m then the Cadillac budget may be closer to 8 or so. That's dirt cheap for a top tier prototype class.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by deggis

What... Being part of the meetings doesn't mean committing, but it means OEM gets 1st hand info and gets to make their own proposals. And currently 5 or 6 named OEMs are doing that while GM is not doing.

And that makes precisely zero difference. Nobody can begin real work until the rules are finalized, and once they are finalized everyone is working off the same amount of information.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by deggis

Wrong link? You said "Scott Sharp says the budget for DPI is $6 - 7.5 million", I'm looking for that part.

I'm interested in as many sources for numbers as possible, myself. I was once told that the Caddy DPi budget is 20-25 mil annually, which is a pretty big discrepancy here(then again, with Nissan we are talking about the one DPi program where the manufacturer is not actually directly involved).

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by kvenom

So it seems like the current DPi manufacturers are very much against the new hypercar formula. Only Acura were sort of open to it, albeit with even more cost reduction and a "base spec chassis" which could be covered with Acura bodywork.

That's not the implication I got form their comments. It felt a lot more like a completely neutral "let's wait and see what the finalized rules say" sort of thing.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by deggis

Wrong link? You said "Scott Sharp says the budget for DPI is $6 - 7.5 million", I'm looking for that part.

I think he got that from here:
https://racer.com/2018/06/20/dpi-man...e-proposals/2/

"Bottom line, I don’t think there’s anybody in DPi signing up to go spend four or five times what we’re spending now."

However this is Sharp speaking about his own team which is decidedly a privateer effort.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by deggis

Wrong link? You said "Scott Sharp says the budget for DPI is $6 - 7.5 million", I'm looking for that part.

wow, i guess posting a link was beyond my capabilities yesterday!

I must have copied the link from the wrong tab. I meant to link to the Racer article:

https://racer.com/2018/06/20/dpi-man...e-proposals/2/

From Scott Sharp:

But even then, I think $30 million for one team? That’s a substantial jump from where a DPi car would be right now. I don’t see how there’s any equation there.

and then:

Bottom line, I don’t think there’s anybody in DPi signing up to go spend four or five times what we’re spending now.

So i did some math and divided $30 million by "4 or 5" and got the $6-7.5 million budget number

[TF110]

It's a false narrative imo. No one is FORCING them to spend that much. Just like no one forced Audi and Porsche to spend over 100, 200 million. What they're doing in DPi right now is hardly different to what they could do in the future rules. Take a chassis and add unique bodywork to it. Oreca has already said they look forward to doing a car. ByKolles wants to do a car etc. There's no way those guys spend 30 million. When I read articles like that on racer.com I shake my head. They want to go to Le Mans with modified lmp2s? Why don't you go to Le Mans with modified GTP's or whatever the cars will be? I don't feel like the ACO should let them run DPi's unless they want to try their hand in a privateer lmp1 class.