The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Japanese Samurai]

Does Toyota employ Duval?

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

This decision must be a major disappointment for Rebellion. Of course Oreca has much better references than Rebellion.

I wouldnt think they ever expected more . And probably were told that if this deal came off , it wouldnt be for them . In fact Bart Hayden did mention that already .

How could they be dissapointed , when looking at Orecas resorces against their own . A good little team perhaps , but no Oreca .

Were their results really that good this year , anyway ?

They should go ALMS and let Toyota go WEC ..... possibily have a go at wrapping up both championships . I hope they do as the ALMS could use the support .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Were their results really that good this year , anyway ?

They should go ALMS and let Toyota go WEC ..... possibily have a go at wrapping up both championships . I hope they do as the ALMS could use the support .

I've always had the sense that Rebellion/Sebah has underachieved a tad over the last few years. I'm not talking about in comparison to Audi and Peugeot, but compared to the factory Oreca 01s, factory Lola-AMRs, Pescarolo, and now OAK. They have the pace to do well, but something always goes wrong that takes possible wins away. I guess they just need a little more polish. Anyway, Oreca certainly has plenty of that so it is a no-brainer to go with them if they are available.

I'd like to see Rebellion go to the ALMS as well. They could definitely win the championship and the idea of a Mazda vs. Honda vs. Toyota battle for the championship would be terrific. It would be great if Toyota USA threw down a few bucks to make it happen, but then again, they could also throw down some money to get the factory car to run in the US too I guess. Anyway, we'll have to see what happens.

Going with Oreca certainly takes some of the doubts away that Toyota would struggle to compete at Le Mans because their crew would be totally inexperienced with each other. We'll have to see how things shake out though. Toyota has certainly provided many surprises the last few weeks.

[lms]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Were their results really that good this year , anyway ?

Rebellion? They are LMS champions this year, its a great result imho.

[DeathOrGlory]

Rebellion is LMS Teams Champion, Pescarolo got the LMS Drivers' Champion.

Great move by ORECA. Maybe Toyota can get a close look at the ORECA 02.
As for Nissan, can they talk to Pescarolo?

[Gingers4Justice]

Hold on - please don't tell me this car will be a TMG, and not a Toyota?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Hold on - please don't tell me this car will be a TMG, and not a Toyota?

But TMG translates to Toyota Motorsport (Gmbh), so what's the difference? I doubt they would use the abbreviation as a banner. Or more like I really hope they wouldn't do that.

Somehow I'm disappointed because I was really expecting 100% in-house stuff. But then again, Audi isn't either totally like that (Joest).

[Livininthinair]

The best senario in my mind would be for Rebellion to run ALMS - would be less expensive with better results than running a full season of WEC. Oreca/TMG run the whole WEC schedule then both meet at LeMans and poss. Petit then Sebring 2013... I see this as a chance for Oreca to help develop a package that will be hopefully be used by Toyota for publicity - congratulations Hugues, I know this isn't Oreca coming up with their own complete car but definitely the next best thing. This annoucement clears up some of the issues with Toyota not very being experienced (recent esperience anyway) at LeMans + having a "French Connection"

...But with what Hugues has said this year at Sebring and Petit that senario could turn 180 degrees... Not knowing if Rebellion is being left out in the cold as a coustomer of TMG and not a development partner for TMG...

[Mal]

The Toyota engine deal was always a customer deal and it was stressed as such. Rebellion stated that they would like the factory deal, as I am sure all teams would -but to say they have been left out in the cold is not quite right.

[kober]

Are the Toyota's customer engines being built by TMG?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by kober

Are the Toyota's customer engines being built by TMG?

It's the SuperGT engine retuned for LMP purposes.

[Livininthinair]

Originally Posted by Mal

The Toyota engine deal was always a customer deal and it was stressed as such. Rebellion stated that they would like the factory deal, as I am sure all teams would -but to say they have been left out in the cold is not quite right.

I didn't necessarily mean they had been left behind, just did not get the deal to be part of the works squad - but they still may be a part of it, as I was theorizing there may be more than one piece to this puzzle. I know they are a customer of TMG and so far does not seem like anything else, but they are also the only team to carry the TMG flag so far so I'm hoping something more will come of that...

-don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Rebellion and Oreca and would love for one or both of them to spend next season in America-

None of us know anymore than has been released - part of the fun of silly season.

[cdsvg]

Is it wrong to view this news as a bit disappointing? It means that the rumored semi-factory oreca car never existed (it was the toyota, presumably), and it also implies that this is maybe not a full-on effort from toyota. Maybe thats being too pessemistic though.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by cdsvg

Is it wrong to view this news as a bit disappointing? It means that the rumored semi-factory oreca car never existed (it was the toyota, presumably), and it also implies that this is maybe not a full-on effort from toyota. Maybe thats being too pessemistic though.

I guess no... since clearly 100% factory effort was expectation. That's still possible of course and I'd like to believe Toyota realized how long it took from Peugeot to learn some things not directly related to the car's performance and that they just want to have their own Joest so to say. I think this is consistent with the Autosport article underlining learning.

[CTD]

In general it's amazing how much an experienced team matters for your performance, with Peugeot being a perfect example!

[Livininthinair]

The Oreca announcement could be a two year toe in the water before going 100% factory effort aligned with the 2014 regulation change. Or taken at face value being coupled with Oreca could have been the plan all along and the new Oreca coupe we have heard about has been the Toyota the whole time...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Livininthinair

Or taken at face value being coupled with Oreca could have been the plan all along and the new Oreca coupe we have heard about has been the Toyota the whole time...

I doubt it. The design for the Oreaca 02 LMP1 coupe is/was ready, but they could not secure a manufacturer engine deal.

ORECA could continue with Peugeot next year, according to de Chaunac, but he also revealed that he is talking to manufacturers about the ORECA 02 LMP1 coupe designed for this season.

"The design is ready, but it needs the finance of a manufacturer," he said. "We have told some manufacturers that if they need a quick solution to join the new FIA World Endurance Series [which replaces the ILMC] in 2012, we can provide it."

source: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110824/ALMS/110829935

[Mal]

Originally Posted by CTD

In general it's amazing how much an experienced team matters for your performance, with Peugeot being a perfect example!

Absolutely - I think with equal machinery Oreca may well have beaten the factory cars due to superior racecraft

[Livininthinair]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I doubt it. The design for the Oreaca 02 LMP1 coupe is/was ready, but they could not secure a manufacturer engine deal.
source: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110824/ALMS/110829935

So the possiblility exists that Toyota may be taking Hugues up on his offer and using the Oreca car as a powertrain development base? I guess this has a very outside chance of being true even though Toyota said its car was almost ready for testing. It just depends if there is a Toyota car and an Oreca car that are not the same, but so far I don't think any of us knows for sure. This deal may have been brewing behind the scenes for longer than we think...

However we only know what we have been told, Oreca will help run the operation and that may be all there is to it...

[gwyllion]

The Oreca 02 and Toyota LMP1 are definitely two different cars.

The design of the Oreca 02 happened in 2009 and the original plan was to use a Peugeot engine. Read http://www.oreca-racing.com/2009/12/...oteur-peugeot/ and http://www.oreca-racing.com/2009/12/...le-long-terme/ Afterwards, they started looking for another engine partner. One rumor was that they would team up with Nissan for 2012.

According http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html TMG has been developing the Toyota LMP1 coupe during 2011, perhaps using the Dome S102 as starting point.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

They should go ALMS and let Toyota go WEC ..... possibily have a go at wrapping up both championships . I hope they do as the ALMS could use the support .

Aside from their extensive experience ORECA likely got the Toyota deal because they've performed well against factory teams.

Whenever the next manufactuer oportunity arrises, be it a link-up or customer car availability, the criteria for choosing the partner will come down to A/ How they performaced at Le Mans B/ How they performed in the WEC.

It's difficult to judge the quality of an ALMS P1 winning team with the present competition, if Rebellion were to chose the ALMS they'd be title contenders but all the eyes would be on how they perform at Le Mans. A poor showing there could see them sidelined, a poor Le Mans showing for Pescarol, OAK, Strakka etc. could be redeemed during other WEC events.

More pressing, who would fund a UK team decamping for a season in the US, and if the money is available for a campaign, be it Toyota NA or a sponsor, why wouldn't a US team pick-up a pair of Lola-Toyota's and do it themselves?

Originally Posted by deggis

I guess no... since clearly 100% factory effort was expectation. That's still possible of course and I'd like to believe Toyota realized how long it took from Peugeot to learn some things not directly related to the car's performance and that they just want to have their own Joest so to say. I think this is consistent with the Autosport article underlining learning.

Teams like Peugeot are the exception, most link up with an experienced operetor, i,e Joest Audi and Penske Porsche, in other cases a team builds and runs the cars as in TWR Jaguar.

[Livininthinair]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The Oreca 02 and Toyota LMP1 are definitely two different cars.

The design of the Oreca 02 happened in 2009 and the original plan was to use a Peugeot engine. Read http://www.oreca-racing.com/2009/12/...oteur-peugeot/ and http://www.oreca-racing.com/2009/12/...le-long-terme/ Afterwards, they started looking for another engine partner. One rumor was that they would team up with Nissan for 2012.

According http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html TMG has been developing the Toyota LMP1 coupe during 2011, perhaps using the Dome S102 as starting point.

This is also the impression I've had up until this morning, but I would think Oreca doesn't have the resources to work on both projects at once so the Oreca 02 must be on the back burner... Looks like Hugues was given a good offer and took it. Im not trying to spread/start the rumor mill just hypothesizing about whats cooking behind the scenes.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG

Teams like Peugeot are the exception, most link up with an experienced operetor, i,e Joest Audi and Penske Porsche, in other cases a team builds and runs the cars as in TWR Jaguar.

Yeah, but I guess most of us expected they'd do the same as Pug. Especially against the background that when Toyota went F1, they didn't absorb an existing F1 team (and was the only manufacturer team not to do that).

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Livininthinair

This is also the impression I've had up until this morning, but I would think Oreca doesn't have the resources to work on both projects at once so the Oreca 02 must be on the back burner... Looks like Hugues was given a good offer and took it. Im not trying to spread/start the rumor mill just hypothesizing about whats cooking behind the scenes.

I just wanted to point out that the suggestion that Toyota LMP1 car is based on the Oreca 02 is plain wrong.

In August 2010 Hugues de Chaunac revealed that the Oreca 02 was stopped: http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-5077.html
It was always assumed that it would be revived in case they could land a deal with engine manufacturer, e.g. Nissan.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by deggis

Yeah, but I guess most of us expected they'd do the same as Pug. Especially against the background that when Toyota went F1, they didn't absorb an existing F1 team (and was the only manufacturer team not to do that).

I did too, but I always thought the same about Porsche yet they partnered with Penske.

Re. ORECA and their P1, they are involved in all sorts of areas, as seen from their website.

http://www.oreca.fr/

While you wouldn't expect an ORECA P1 to go up against an ORECA run Toyota team, the income from the Toyota gig will make the organisation stronger.