[Official] Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 21 of 22

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

That was the one Max move I was ok with lol. He made it work.

I agree. Brilliant overtake.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by hillickx

Seeing Verstappen dive bomb to over take Lewis and Ocon on the red flag restart, is not the markings of a world champion, IMO.



Doing that kind of move on track with little to no run off, should be best reserved to the final 5 laps or so.

They don’t have standing restarts with 5 laps to go.Race would have been declared.
Agree with the 2 people above.Lewis was concerned about Ocon.Forgot about covering the inside.Was Max supposed to just sit and watch?Opportunities like that very rarely come along.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Alan52

They don’t have standing restarts with 5 laps to go.Race would have been declared.
Agree with the 2 people above.Lewis was concerned about Ocon.Forgot about covering the inside.Was Max supposed to just sit and watch?Opportunities like that very rarely come along.

Baku had a standing restart with literally two laps to go....agree that Max's second restart move was fantastic though...almost Championship defining.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Baku had a standing restart with literally two laps to go....agree that Max's second restart move was fantastic though...almost Championship defining.

Almost,….but it wasn’t.

I’d say his ‘overtake’ into Turn 1 on Lewis was far more defining

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by E.B

The coroners enquiry found neither driver to blame, describing it as a freak accident.
In fact the subsequent fatality was more deemed the fault of the organisers who were found to have known for years of the risk of flying debris, and the debris fencing being inadequate being an issue at the point where Graham Beveridge died. It was deemed an avoidable accident and death.
From the drivers involvement it was classified (by the coroner) as a Racing incident.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20.../09/formulaone

In videos of the crash and interviews immediately afterwards JV made no mention of Ralf braking early

Yes I thought that was the case.

Pretty poor form by greentrumpet to accuse Ralf of causing the marshal's death then. Just to to win an internet argument.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Almost,….but it wasn’t.

I’d say his ‘overtake’ into Turn 1 on Lewis was far more defining

Many moments could define this Championship, including of course Hamilton's action at Silverstone or Bottas' at Hungary. I'm afraid to say that this Championship will likely be tainted in some eyes whichever way it goes.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by steve_r

We all have our own opinions on these 2 drivers. Many of the points that you listed in praise of Verstappen could easily be attributed to Hamilton as well. However in comparing Verstappen with Schumacher and Senna - I think that many people consider that both of those drivers crossed the line of what is acceptable or not on many occasions - but that really is going over old ground.

And there will be plenty of examples of similar on radio traffic that you dislike about Hamilton coming from the Verstappen camp - and that is without analysing the stuff that Horner and Marko come out with.

The world mostly is polarised between these two. This forum is not twitter, and I hope that despite any specific loyalties that posters may have, that we can see the grey area in-between for both of them.

Anything that distracts us from discussing the Ashes is a good thing.

Ashes you say?

I better put Australia back as my country on my bio

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I guess they haven’t accounted for the Perez Torpedo, or even the Bottas Rocket.

Or a Tsuonda Tsunami?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Many moments could define this Championship, including of course Hamilton's action at Silverstone or Bottas' at Hungary. I'm afraid to say that this Championship will likely be tainted in some eyes whichever way it goes.

I disagree, I think it’s been pretty balanced overall.

Both teams and drivers have made mistakes, had some bad luck and have put in some utterly awesome performances.

Sure you can go back throughout the season and pick one incident but that can be countered by another….just the ebb and flow of a great season.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by steve_r

We all have our own opinions on these 2 drivers. Many of the points that you listed in praise of Verstappen could easily be attributed to Hamilton as well. However in comparing Verstappen with Schumacher and Senna - I think that many people consider that both of those drivers crossed the line of what is acceptable or not on many occasions - but that really is going over old ground.

And there will be plenty of examples of similar on radio traffic that you dislike about Hamilton coming from the Verstappen camp - and that is without analysing the stuff that Horner and Marko come out with.

The world mostly is polarised between these two. This forum is not twitter, and I hope that despite any specific loyalties that posters may have, that we can see the grey area in-between for both of them.

Anything that distracts us from discussing the Ashes is a good thing.

Agree.I am now at the point where my main wish is for a clean race than any particular winner.
Ashes you say?The Ghost Of Nasser Hussain spoke to Joe Root at the toss,most of the batting was terrible and although the 3 pace bowlers were excellent the back up bowling were gifts,the fielding wasn’t great and every piece of luck went against them.They need to do an India and put the match out of their minds before Adelaide next Thursday.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I disagree, I think it’s been pretty balanced overall.

Both teams and drivers have made mistakes, had some bad luck and have put in some utterly awesome performances.

Sure you can go back throughout the season and pick one incident but that can be countered by another….just the ebb and flow of a great season.

It has been pretty balanced. Hence, my comment that a single moment whether positive or negative could define the Championship...you seemed to want to make a completely different point.

However, as I said to SOME eyes it will be a tainted Championship whichever way it goes. Max fans will bring up Silverstone/Hungary/Imola if he loses, Lewis fans will bring up Monza/Spa/Jeddah if he loses. The season just has that level of controversy surrounding it as a whole.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Beau2

It has been pretty balanced. Hence, my comment that a single moment whether positive or negative could define the Championship...you seemed to want to make a completely different point.

However, as I said to SOME eyes it will be a tainted Championship whichever way it goes. Max fans will bring up Silverstone/Hungary/Imola if he loses, Lewis fans will bring up Monza/Spa/Jeddah if he loses. The season just has that level of controversy surrounding it as a whole.

Nope, wasn’t trying to make a point, just countering your point that the max move into turn 1 was season defining…,I think there was a far more defining move into that turn in the same race, especially with how much it’s got people talking about Max’s driving going into the final race.

I’m a Hamilton fan, don’t mind admitting it. However more than that I’m a fan of the sport. Drivers will come and go, so I care more for the sport than any single driver. I may not like Max and Red Bull but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate his talent and Red Bulls work ethic. We currently have 2 teams and drivers operating at between 99% and 101% where you either lose or overstep the boundary.

While at times it’s being frustrating to watch, overall it’s been an absolute pleasure.

[Knowlesy]

Spa will annoy me I must admit, but it seems likely the points gap will make it irrelevant.

[greentrumpet]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Yes I thought that was the case.

Pretty poor form by greentrumpet to accuse Ralf of causing the marshal's death then. Just to to win an internet argument.

I apologise.
In all honesty I saw another post that described the incident and vaguely recalled it. I'm pretty sure it was here a few days prior to my post but I felt appropriate to link the two events. It appears I was wrong about the 2001 incident, that doesn't alter the fact that Max's driving at the point in question was dirty and should have no place in any class of racing.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Spa will annoy me I must admit, but it seems likely the points gap will make it irrelevant.

Tbh I have to agree. Out of all the incidents this year that’s the one that still gets me, and probably the most damaging incident for the sport. Luckily for F1 there has been a lot to mask that day so most people will forget, however if Max wins the championship by less than 5 points, some people won’t be happy.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Many moments could define this Championship, including of course Hamilton's action at Silverstone or Bottas' at Hungary. I'm afraid to say that this Championship will likely be tainted in some eyes whichever way it goes.

I’ve never accepted John Surtees as the 1964 champion. Forever tainted by Mexico.

[S griffin]

To be fair Surtees wouldn't have been champion that year if all scores counted

[Adam43]

1950 too, always tainted by some of Farina’s driving antics.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

To be fair Surtees wouldn't have been champion that year if all scores counted

Prost got more points than Senna in '88 but only the eleven best results counted towards the WDC.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Nope, wasn’t trying to make a point, just countering your point that the max move into turn 1 was season defining…,I think there was a far more defining move into that turn in the same race, especially with how much it’s got people talking about Max’s driving going into the final race.

I’m a Hamilton fan, don’t mind admitting it. However more than that I’m a fan of the sport. Drivers will come and go, so I care more for the sport than any single driver. I may not like Max and Red Bull but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate his talent and Red Bulls work ethic. We currently have 2 teams and drivers operating at between 99% and 101% where you either lose or overstep the boundary.

While at times it’s being frustrating to watch, overall it’s been an absolute pleasure.

I think we can finally agree on something. It has been a fantastic Championship but as a mostly neutral (I wamt Max to win but he's not near my favourite driver) it will still be tainted in some eyes, even if it isn't ours. Formula 1 has likely been brought some new fans but is in a damaged and dangerous place too.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Tbh I have to agree. Out of all the incidents this year that’s the one that still gets me, and probably the most damaging incident for the sport. Luckily for F1 there has been a lot to mask that day so most people will forget, however if Max wins the championship by less than 5 points, some people won’t be happy.

I actually don't mind the awarding of points in Spa, due to the fact that qualifying was a level playing ground, and it at least gave them some reward from that. Given that Verstappen beat Lewis Hamilton to pole position, he was more likely to outscore him anyway, and deserves some reward for that. It seems a bit too much to get half-points, the same as if they actually had raced for half-distance, but often then you get scenarios like Monaco 1984 where the race was stopped when Senna was catching Prost, or Interlagos 2003 where Coulthard lost the win due to pitting just before the red flag (and that was full points), so when half-points are awarded there will always be controversy and injustice.

The thing that will peeve me if Verstappen wins by less than five points is the five extra points he has gained in sprint races compared to Hamilton, as I think it is ridiculous that points should be awarded for a trial new qualifying format, and it is a travesty that points may be extended to the top ten for sprints next season. But then some will be unhappy if Hamilton wins because of the 25 points he gained in Silverstone. To be honest, I think Verstappen deserves it more, as he lost so many points in Silverstone, Hungary and Azerbaijan through little fault of his own. But I'm more glad it has gone to the final race with equal points, and as a neutral I will enjoy the finale whoever wins it (as long as it is won fairly).

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I actually don't mind the awarding of points in Spa, due to the fact that qualifying was a level playing ground, and it at least gave them some reward from that. Given that Verstappen beat Lewis Hamilton to pole position, he was more likely to outscore him anyway, and deserves some reward for that. It seems a bit too much to get half-points, the same as if they actually had raced for half-distance, but often then you get scenarios like Monaco 1984 where the race was stopped when Senna was catching Prost, or Interlagos 2003 where Coulthard lost the win due to pitting just before the red flag (and that was full points), so when half-points are awarded there will always be controversy and injustice.

The thing that will peeve me if Verstappen wins by less than five points is the five extra points he has gained in sprint races compared to Hamilton, as I think it is ridiculous that points should be awarded for a trial new qualifying format, and it is a travesty that points may be extended to the top ten for sprints next season. But then some will be unhappy if Hamilton wins because of the 25 points he gained in Silverstone. To be honest, I think Verstappen deserves it more, as he lost so many points in Silverstone, Hungary and Azerbaijan through little fault of his own. But I'm more glad it has gone to the final race with equal points, and as a neutral I will enjoy the finale whoever wins it (as long as it is won fairly).

Hmm maybe

I’d say the only one of the Silverstone, Baku and Hungary races where I feel sorry for Max is Hungary.

In Baku Red Bull pushed the limits of tyre pressures/ camber to be competitive and at Silverstone Max was pushing the limits with Lewis. In both circumstances there was a way of avoiding those incidents but when you’re pushing the limits, sometimes you operate at 99% and others at 101%…with the latter you fail.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by paulzinho

Do wonder how Charlie would have handled it all... always struck me at how respected he was by everyone having done it for so long!

Originally Posted by AndrewCherry

To my mind, the most telling measure of a RD would be that they're effectively invisible - they're not seen to be doing anything, just keeping things ticking along. Charlie Whiting seemed to be excellent at that - the number of times he was the story, from memory, is basically zero. They also need to be seen to be impartial - which snide responses and sarcasm (i.e. the response to Wolff after the race) completely undermines.

Just for clarity, particularly when it comes to how much authority the teams see Masi having:

From 1997, Charlie Whiting was FIA Director and Safety Delegate. His role included the logistics of each F1 Grand Prix, inspecting cars in parc fermé before a race, enforcing FIA rules, and controlling the lights that start each race. He was responsible for track and car safety, the technical and procedural regulations of the sport.

From 2019, Michael Masi has served as the FIA Formula One Race Director only.

[Greem]

Worth thinking about the amount of time Charlie had in F1 overall.

He'd been doing that job since before a very large number of the people involved in F1 - drivers, mechanics, PR, media, designers, engineers, management etc - were born. On top of that he'd been a mechanic (championship winning chief mechanic!) since 1977, meaning he'd been in F1 longer than most of the participants had been walking the earth.

He was on the inside, from the inside. One of the gang. Poacher turned gamekeeper.

Michael Masi was born in 1979. His first involvement in F1 was as deputy RD to Charlie, a role he did for about a year before Charlie's untimely death. He's been in post for less time than many of the current drivers have been in F1. He came from outside the gang.

A lot of the criticism levelled at him is that he isn't Charlie. Well, no he isn't; nobody is. Nobody *can be*.

If Masi stays around as long as Charlie, perhaps he'll be shown the respect that he should, largely, already be getting. I doubt that will ever happen, sadly, there are too many people gunning for him now.

And if he moved on, who would take the seat? Someone new. Someone untrusted. Someone else who isn't Charlie.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Greem

And if he moved on, who would take the seat? Someone new. Someone untrusted. Someone else who isn't Charlie.

Or more than one person? Could the role be divided?

Or…Eduardo Freitas…