Group A Rover 3500 SD1/Vitesse - History & Whereabouts

[KA]

Originally Posted by corliss

Not sure, but was`nt there some confusion as to the portugese cars being the same car?

Just found a report of a hill climb showing both cars at same event





Skip

Now that's a find! One of our Portuguese posters confirmed there being more than one car a while ago, but it's nice to have another pic showing both at the same event. Have you got a date for those pics- going on the details that were posted would suggest they're from 1984

The details that were posted are that two RHD ex-Metge Marlboro cars came to Portugal in 1983- one for Meireles (The red 'Traffic' car) and one for Jose Peres- a couple of the first pics I found of the 'Traffic' car, from a 1983 race report also show the Peres car in the background, still in Marlboro colours. Both are subsequently converted to LHD

The 'Traffic' car is raced by Meireles and Ni Amorim until 1986, when the 'Traffic' sponsorship went to Manuel Fernandes' BMW 635.

The Peres car is sold to Artur Mendes later in 83, and raced by him in 1984 in the 'Iniciados' championship, which as I understand it was a class for novice drivers in Portuguese touring cars

Mendes sold the car on to Helder Oliviera, who ran it in the 'Iniciados' category in 1985, and replaced it with an ex-TWR car (possibly a 1985 Bastos car?) for 1986.

The ex-Peres/Mendes car was sold to Jose Nelson who raced it in the 'Iniciados' class during 1986, and the main championship in '87.

So we've got three Rovers in Portugal during the 80's- the two original ex-Marlboro cars and a later TWR car.

Two of these certainly seem to still be there- the ex-Oliviera TWR car, and one of the earlier pair, apparently the Meireles car. There are recent pics of both earlier in the thread

[corliss]

Originally Posted by KA

Now that's a find! One of our Portuguese posters confirmed there being more than one car a while ago, but it's nice to have another pic showing both at the same event. Have you got a date for those pics- going on the details that were posted would suggest they're from 1984

The details that were posted are that two RHD ex-Metge Marlboro cars came to Portugal in 1983- one for Meireles (The red 'Traffic' car) and one for Jose Peres- a couple of the first pics I found of the 'Traffic' car, from a 1983 race report also show the Peres car in the background, still in Marlboro colours. Both are subsequently converted to LHD

The 'Traffic' car is raced by Meireles and Ni Amorim until 1986, when the 'Traffic' sponsorship went to Manuel Fernandes' BMW 635.

The Peres car is sold to Artur Mendes later in 83, and raced by him in 1984 in the 'Iniciados' championship, which as I understand it was a class for novice drivers in Portuguese touring cars

Mendes sold the car on to Helder Oliviera, who ran it in the 'Iniciados' category in 1985, and replaced it with an ex-TWR car (possibly a 1985 Bastos car?) for 1986.

The ex-Peres/Mendes car was sold to Jose Nelson who raced it in the 'Iniciados' class during 1986, and the main championship in '87.

So we've got three Rovers in Portugal during the 80's- the two original ex-Marlboro cars and a later TWR car.

Two of these certainly seem to still be there- the ex-Oliviera TWR car, and one of the earlier pair, apparently the Meireles car. There are recent pics of both earlier in the thread

You are absolutely correct in your date KA, photo`s taken at Rampa Da Pena 1984

Skip

[chunterer]

Is the Pope a Catholic?!

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Is the Pope a Catholic?!

Haha, good point!! I've just posted the pictures in the Thundersaloon thread but I've also picked out the three Rovers seperately (it's from a retrospective article, I can't remember what in and I only got it as included a picture of my father and flukely enough some Rovers!!). The quality is not excellent due to me zooming in but it does give a lot of detail. I'm not sure about the white Rover (could be Russell at Snetterton) but the two red and white ones are from Brands Hatch at Graham Hill (or Bottom for the older guys) Bend in 1988 as shown on the clip we had earlier in the thread.

[chunterer]

Thanks Gregor

In the 'Side by side' shot is presumably the Chatfield ex Bastos 86 ETC car, and as I suspected from the earlier youtube clip, the one on the inside with your late father in (I think?) is the car Skid Scarborough ran in '87 BTCC judging by the livery on it that was owned by Martin Thomas and previously driven by the likes of Neil McGrath and Gordon Spice?

The white one acting like a beached whale in the other shot is more tricky. Depending on the year it could be any number of cars but again the basic profile suggests an ex Group A car and possibly of TWR decendency. I'd say it's 89 or '90 because the Senator looks like it's in Chris Millards colours rather than the plain white from '88. In which case I'd say the SD1 is the Kevin Eaton chassis 020, or if it's not a TWR origin chassis it could be the ex Rouse, Hall, Harvey Istel car that Nigel Garrett now runs?

Looking for other suggestions folks.....

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Thanks Gregor

In the 'Side by side' shot is presumably the Chatfield ex Bastos 86 ETC car, and as I suspected from the earlier youtube clip, the one on the inside with your late father in (I think?) is the car Skid Scarborough ran in '87 BTCC judging by the livery on it that was owned by Martin Thomas and previously driven by the likes of Neil McGrath and Gordon Spice?

The white one acting like a beached whale in the other shot is more tricky. Depending on the year it could be any number of cars but again the basic profile suggests an ex Group A car and possibly of TWR decendency. I'd say it's 89 or '90 because the Senator looks like it's in Chris Millards colours rather than the plain white from '88. In which case I'd say the SD1 is the Kevin Eaton chassis 020, or if it's not a TWR origin chassis it could be the ex Rouse, Hall, Harvey Istel car that Nigel Garrett now runs?

Looking for other suggestions folks.....

To be honest I don't know which car my Dad was driving; I'm fairly sure that neither are him in that picture, as there is a picture from the race (on the Thundersaloon thread) when he was in the Firenza and he is wearing an open face helmet and white overralls that I think they would show.

He definitely drove two cars in this race and at the next round (Snetterton) he drove a Vitesse (and the Firenza again), so I think it probably was one of those just not sure which one (I need the programme from Brands 27th March or Snetterton 1st April to be sure).

The magazine says the pictures come from 88 and 89 but could be wrong I suppose and I agree the Senator is definitely in one of it's latter colour schemes, was still white in 1988. It does look famailar though; maybe there is a picture on this thread of it already?? Only 43 pages to check!!

[chunterer]

Actually now you mention it i think ive muddled up me Rovers again!

I figured Gerry would've been driving the ex Skid Letchworth liveried car because they were great mates but then again your dad might've been in the Marlboro liveried car (not in these shots but in the clip) that Bill Griffin had in '87?. This is the one that might have ended up in Arthur Carters hands although we still ain't sure of the original identity of the Griffin car other than it was either chassis 005, 013 or as an outside bet actually direct from BL that was used a a test hack as Alex E intimated a few pages back!!! Yikes...

God, the more this thread develops the more things get confusing!!!

Alex might be able to get info from one of Griffins engine builders, i'll pm him to ask how he's got on.

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The white one acting like a beached whale in the other shot is more tricky. Depending on the year it could be any number of cars but again the basic profile suggests an ex Group A car and possibly of TWR decendency. I'd say it's 89 or '90 because the Senator looks like it's in Chris Millards colours rather than the plain white from '88. In which case I'd say the SD1 is the Kevin Eaton chassis 020, or if it's not a TWR origin chassis it could be the ex Rouse, Hall, Harvey Istel car that Nigel Garrett now runs?

Looking for other suggestions folks.....

Just been looking back through some old pics and programmes, and I reckon the white car beached in the gravel is John Quartermaine- I don't have a pic of it in that livery, but a 1988 programme for a Modsaloon race at Donington has his Mk2 Escort entered by 'Estdale Exhibition & TV Scenery Contractors'- as I recall, the car was fairly distinctive, plain white with 'Estdale', in large script (same style as on the Rover, but I think bigger) the full length of the side of the car.

John's son posted some history of the car earlier in the thread- chassis 017, Bastos car crashed by Walkinshaw, subsequently reshelled by Dennis Leech, crashed and reshelled again by Nick Humphrey (it obviously had a hard life...) and restored to Bastos colours by Ken Clarke for the Williams family, who were running it in Heritage Touring Cars a couple of years ago.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=128

Adam Quartermaine also confirmed that the 'mystery' Corrabox-sponsored white car (I'll repost the pic in a minute) I photographed at a Brands Thundersaloon or Modsaloon race in the early 90's is the same car
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=173

[KA]

Early 90's Thundersaloon or Modsaloon race at Brands:

[alfa166]

On pages 19+20, you're talking about two cars for sale by Geert Boels in Belgium.

I bought the spare race car a couple of weeks ago. It was owned by Mr. Pickard (guyhirn./Wisbech) untill about 2004. It has license LSD630W, and has "plastic" bonnet, front fenders, back doors and bootlid. Also a rollcage of Safety devices and wide wheel arches with 16" rims (3 piece) Engine is dismantled in the back

Enclosed are some pictures.

If you have info on this car please respond, because we want to rebuild it

[chunterer]

Hi alfa, welcome to this thread.
Have you really read all the way through it?!!! How long did it take?

Interesting car you have there and i'm sure more info will come out for you, the more people see it.

Interestingly it looks like it has Istel coloured stripes that Tim Harvey ran on his ex Rouse car in 1987. I'm pretty sure it isn't that car however, as the 'W' reg plate, assuming it's a British registered car, suggests it would have been new sometime from August 1980 through to July 1981 or something? I don't know how significant that is though?

Is there a chance this was a fomer rallysprint car?

alfa do you know if your car was a race car or a rally car?

[martin thomas]

Ex Patrick motorsport cars Rover's Brian muirs car went to Andy Rouse for C Sawyer Hoare, Rex Greenslades car went to Dennis Leech . Mark hales bought from us ex works Group 2 car . Spare Patrick motorsport car in collection at museum . This was also used by Rad Dougall at TT. New car for Gordon Spice which we ran then sold to Linden Racing and raced by Niel McGrath. Later to Letchworth roofing and I understand it was destroyed

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hi alfa, welcome to this thread.
Have you really read all the way through it?!!! How long did it take?

Interesting car you have there and i'm sure more info will come out for you, the more people see it.

Interestingly it looks like it has Istel coloured stripes that Tim Harvey ran on his ex Rouse car in 1987. I'm pretty sure it isn't that car however, as the 'W' reg plate, assuming it's a British registered car, suggests it would have been new sometime from August 1980 through to July 1981 or something? I don't know how significant that is though?

Is there a chance this was a fomer rallysprint car?

alfa do you know if your car was a race car or a rally car?

I've just run that registration through the DVLA website and it comes up with:
The vehicle details for LSD 630W are:
Date of Liability 01 10 2000
Date of First Registration 28 01 1981
Year of Manufacture 1981
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 3528CC
CO2 Emissions Not Available
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status Unlicensed
Vehicle Colour WHITE
Vehicle Type Approval null

The stripes are very similar to the Istel car- but I think we've identified that as the Derek Hales modsaloon.

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by martin thomas

Ex Patrick motorsport cars Rover's Brian muirs car went to Andy Rouse for C Sawyer Hoare, Rex Greenslades car went to Dennis Leech . Mark hales bought from us ex works Group 2 car . Spare Patrick motorsport car in collection at museum . This was also used by Rad Dougall at TT. New car for Gordon Spice which we ran then sold to Linden Racing and raced by Niel McGrath. Later to Letchworth roofing and I understand it was destroyed

Martin - Reference the car that went to Letchworth Roofing; was it destroyed with Graham Scarborough driving it?

[chunterer]

Can't have been Gregor, it's pictured in 1988 in those Thundersaloon shots you posted on the inside of the Chatfield car? Skid had passed it on by then I believe as he only ran it in 1987 BTCC?

[GBRM]

Good point and answered my question, should engage brain first!!

I've just been shown a front and rear shot of Pete Hall's 1985 car from Silverstone. I've asked the photographer to either post or for permission to post on his behalf, so fingers crossed.

[GBRM]

Right, got permission from Rich Harman to post the pictures he took as long as they have his copyright on them which they do, so thank you Rich. The pictures are from the 24th March 1985.

[alfa166]

I don't know if it was a rally or race car.
Looks to me as a race car, juding by its ride height.

Does a chassis nr clarify a lot?

I also found a reg doc V5, with license A586 WOX, dated 1994, former owner mr. Dudley from Huddersfield, new owner mr. Drummond from Darlington, colour was black then.

It probably was converted after 1996 somewhere

[alfa166]

Derek Hales modsaloon

Does somebody know if those wide wheel arches are FIA homologated for a specific race class?

If so, can somebody please contact me, because we are rebuilding a similar car, and are in desperate need of official data for a proper rebuild.

thnx

Jeroen

[KA]

Originally Posted by alfa166

Derek Hales modsaloon

Does somebody know if those wide wheel arches are FIA homologated for a specific race class?

If so, can somebody please contact me, because we are rebuilding a similar car, and are in desperate need of official data for a proper rebuild.

thnx

Jeroen

Not that I'm aware of- the green South African car was probably built to local regulations, and the Hales car is a former Group A car (ex-Tim Harvey/Istel, originally the Rouse/Hall ICS car pictured above) subsequently altered to British club Modified Saloon regulations.

A good comparison might be the original Dave Price Racing 'Unipart' Group 2 car from 1979/80 or so, pictured a page or two back. The only FIA ruleset I can think of that an SD1 would have raced in with that style of wide arches are the pre-1982 Group 2 regs.

[alfa166]

can someone trace (on paper) these regulations of the Group 2 or Modified Saloon?

I'll need a copy of these reg, otherwise I cannot get the HTP (historic tech passport)
I have no idea where to look or who to contact.

thanks in advance

[A Quartermaine]

Originally Posted by KA

Just been looking back through some old pics and programmes, and I reckon the white car beached in the gravel is John Quartermaine- I don't have a pic of it in that livery, but a 1988 programme for a Modsaloon race at Donington has his Mk2 Escort entered by 'Estdale Exhibition & TV Scenery Contractors'- as I recall, the car was fairly distinctive, plain white with 'Estdale', in large script (same style as on the Rover, but I think bigger) the full length of the side of the car.

John's son posted some history of the car earlier in the thread- chassis 017, Bastos car crashed by Walkinshaw, subsequently reshelled by Dennis Leech, crashed and reshelled again by Nick Humphrey (it obviously had a hard life...) and restored to Bastos colours by Ken Clarke for the Williams family, who were running it in Heritage Touring Cars a couple of years ago.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=128

Adam Quartermaine also confirmed that the 'mystery' Corrabox-sponsored white car (I'll repost the pic in a minute) I photographed at a Brands Thundersaloon or Modsaloon race in the early 90's is the same car
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=173

Hi Chaps,

The Estdale & Corrabox cars are one of the same, this is the car raced by John Quartermaine which is the former Demon Tweeks Leech car / TWR Bastos Walkinshaw car.

Best wishes,
Adam

[KA]

Originally Posted by A Quartermaine

Hi Chaps,

The Estdale & Corrabox cars are one of the same, this is the car raced by John Quartermaine which is the former Demon Tweeks Leech car / TWR Bastos Walkinshaw car.

Best wishes,
Adam

Thanks for confirming that Adam

[martin thomas]

Originally Posted by alfa166

Derek Hales modsaloon

Does somebody know if those wide wheel arches are FIA homologated for a specific race class?

If so, can somebody please contact me, because we are rebuilding a similar car, and are in desperate need of official data for a proper rebuild.

thnx

Jeroen

wheel archesfor Group 2 and trophee de avenuer I am no sure of spelling on latter. Mark hales car simalar to Goup 1 and a half but arches allowed bigger wheels. All other modificatios refer to FIA group 2 rules at time of cars run.

[martin thomas]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Martin - Reference the car that went to Letchworth Roofing; was it destroyed with Graham Scarborough driving it?

I will ask Skid