IMSA: 2020

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

4. During these times of manufacturer participation decline. Series has to make sure that the privateer efforts are taking care of and not screwed over like the WEC P1 teams in 2018-2019 season

We've been saying that on this forum for years. DPi has the same problems as LMP1, just at different scales. You have to have manufacturers to run it, and we're about to run out of manufacturers. LMP1 didn't have to have a manufacturer, but it was so insanely expensive that you needed to anyway.

You need customer cars. You need names like Lola, Reynard, Dallara to be building cars that you can stick a Judd and Gibson engine in the back of. No it isn't as sexy as an Acura or Audi badge, but it'll keep your series alive.

DPi is close to facing WEC style issues.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

With a juggernaut like Corvette Racing in there, I doubt that many - if any - privateer outfits that don't have significant works backing would be willing to take on GT3-Pro for more than a year or two at most.

Just like GTLM today, GT3-Pro needs to be either all works teams or all privateers - mixing the two will - in the long run - not result in healthy grids.

Yeah, if it went to gtd pro and gtd am, it would end up with Corvette and bmw (currently) in gtd pro, and everyone else gtd am, and we'd be in the same boat, just a renamed gtlm.

Sure, let's make gtd the top gt class. Then the two or three manufacturers on average at a time will drive up development and costs to compete, make it a much more expensive of current gtd, and run everyone else off into the second level gt class, whatever that is. Then, in 5-8 years, we can say "just make gtd-am (or whatever it is at that point) the top gt class and bring in gt4 or GS or whatever for the privateers. The cycle continues.... gt1->gt2->gtlm->gtd..... By the end of each life cycle, the replacement class becomes as fast or faster than the bigger class they replaced.

Not that I pretend to know the answer, either. Maybe require that factories sell/subsidize/support at least one privateer team running their car, so like Corvette and BMW each help out a second team by providing the cars, factory drivers and other help? Or make it kinda the cadillac dpi model where more than one team is supplied with the same car? Although it's not like mazda or acura are doing that, so.... (I think they should).

So this is the gtlm circling the drain. Gtd becomes top class, bring in gt4 or gs or whatever, have camaros and stuff in the field again, then in about 8 years it will become the top class and gt5 will become the new gtd.

[carbsmith]

If there's no GTLM it's because there's no factory GT teams and if there's no factory GT teams there's no need for a GT Pro.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

If there's no GTLM it's because there's no factory GT teams and if there's no factory GT teams there's no need for a GT Pro.

Not sure I agree there. The hybrid private team/factory support (including drivers) model works very well in races like Spa and Nurburgring 24. I see no reason there can't be the same approach to IMSA or even WEC. Independent teams, pro drivers, factory support. From a manufacturer POV it's perfect, from our POV we get great drivers in great cars in great races.

[broadrun96]

Exactly that, no GTLM means at some pointonly Corvette was left standing.

And Corvette's big cost and how it used to lead was testing and improvement. Not possible with the homologated cars and no development outside of the cycles for GT3. Might cost P&M some crew but it seems they're at place to cut back with crew members retiring, can just not replace them with new crew.

Costs for cars are claimed to be close between GT3 and GTE/LM chassis. Risi claimed it was fairly cheap to update a GT3 chassis, under 50k was one number thrown out in articles a couple years back. What else is the budget difference other than drivers bring budget to the team for GTD runners? It would be interesting to have an idea of the GTLM vs front of field GTD teams budgets.

I could see BMW decide to save some by cancelling the M8, especially as it's apparently not selling to expectations, to support a team in an M4 in GTD with a factory driver per car but they would only need 2 for the season with 2 cars. What does that do for Corvette? They wouldn't need their full driver crew in GTD but could see them stay with GTE regs to run one more LM in 2021. But after that, running solo again seems like something GM isn't going to pay for. Would they sell the cars for series use? I'm thinking drivers might line up for a GT3 factory Vette with P&M working the cars. And possibly cars to run in WC or other SRO, if they went full GT3. It's Corvette though, I could see them getting an IMSA special homologation as GTD not GT3 and then not make them available.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Not sure I agree there. The hybrid private team/factory support (including drivers) model works very well in races like Spa and Nurburgring 24. I see no reason there can't be the same approach to IMSA or even WEC. Independent teams, pro drivers, factory support. From a manufacturer POV it's perfect, from our POV we get great drivers in great cars in great races.

Because the IMSA rules and GTD team setup is against that, except for the first season. Would take the teams involved redoing their funding and possibly costing us all teams that aren't manufacturer funded. Back to where we were with GTLM.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Because the IMSA rules and GTD team setup is against that, except for the first season. Would take the teams involved redoing their funding and possibly costing us all teams that aren't manufacturer funded. Back to where we were with GTLM.

It is now. Just like WEC is fundamentally based on manufacturer teams. Such rulesets are unsustainable.

My view is that racing series based around factory manufacturer involvement have no future. Stephane Ratel is - yet again - correct: the future is customer racing. And as with SRO's series - by far and away the most thriving GT series in the world - there is a place for a class of customer teams with factory support and Pro drivers. The other crucial element is Ratel's other obsession: cost control.

Customer teams, factory support in a Pro class, savage cost control. That's the future of top-level motorsport, IMHO.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

It is now. Just like WEC is fundamentally based on manufacturer teams. Such rulesets are unsustainable.

My view is that racing series based around factory manufacturer involvement have no future. Stephane Ratel is - yet again - correct: the future is customer racing. And as with SRO's series - by far and away the most thriving GT series in the world - there is a place for a class of customer teams with factory support and Pro drivers. The other crucial element is Ratel's other obsession: cost control.

Customer teams, factory support in a Pro class, savage cost control. That's the future of top-level motorsport, IMHO.

SRO GT has been great for sportscar racing no doubt. Business model is 100% awesome and I hope it sustains itself this decade. If they get over the stupid stupid stupid safety car procedures it could be great again like it was in the mid 2010s. IMSA for their part has been the best sportscar series on the planet overall for the past 3 years. Not just the great grids and tracks. But what set it apart was how little safety car time there has been.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

1. They think Porsche withdraw is the start and it gives others the green light to get out and if you are going to get out do it now while you have the Porsche departure covering you. Bentley ICGT withdraw maybe have the first to follow up.

Yup, there they go:

https://www.motorsport.com/endurance...6a4uVoeWtM5ddI

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

My view is that racing series based around factory manufacturer involvement have no future. Stephane Ratel is - yet again - correct: the future is customer racing.

Ratel found a sustainable championship. But amateur drivers can't make a top level class, much less the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

[joeb]

i think this is topical here:

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-numbered.html

Ratel says upgrading gt3 isn't worth it.

[broadrun96]

Multiple people within GT have said it's a non-starter idea. The cars are built to the GT3 spec, the "upgrade" may not be any upgrade at all and would likely cost more than just buying a GTE car. GT3 isn't much cheaper for the cars itself according to people who supposed to be in the know in the media.

[Speed-King]

From that interview with Ratel:

“So if you go down that road of using GT3 cars as the basis for a full factory competition, you will want to make these cars more exciting in some way. But then it becomes a lot more expensive. And I can give you an example that I learned by myself.

“At first it seemed very simple when we had success with GT3 and we had GT4 where we then accepted cars like the Audi R8 and the McLaren 570.

“Some people came and said, “look, these cars, they are 600 horsepower, and we run them at 450. It’s nonsense, we can very easily create GT4 plus.

“And I said, that’s a good idea. We could have, effectively, something between GT3 and GT4. So I presented this little project to the manufacturers, and they literally laughed at me.

“They said: ‘Stephane this is not possible because if I take my GT4 car and I put the normal power into the car I have to change everything. I have to change all the cooling, I have to change the gearbox, I have to change the transmission, the driveshaft and everything because it’s not the same car.’

So that essentially means we are stuck with the cars available on the market right now at least for the foreseeable future.

Now here's another quote, this one by James Glickenhaus:

The winds of change that are blowing will shape the future and those that stand in the way of it will be blown over.
Racing has to return to the days where normal people with help from their friends can buy a sportcar and go racing.

What I would propose, then, is this: Replace GTLM with GT3 - and then create a class below GT3 that is aimed at the type of teams that Mr Glickenhaus has in mind. Essentially, I would bring back the Prep1/Prep2-system of Grand Am GT. Prep1 would be based on the current Porsche Cup-car, though teams would be allowed to build cars on other models as well if they wanted to do so. Prep2 would be a tubeframe category, but rather than building that sub-class from the ground up, I would base it on the existing Trans-Am2-cars, which are good-looking,plentiful and cheap. The only change I would make is that I would allow (though not require) sequential gearboxes - but seeing how some TA2-series abroad are already running in that configuration, I would think that that would not require a lot of R&D and could be implemented rather cheaply.

Historically, the big IMSA races, especially Daytona and Sebring have been rather inclusive events and open to exactly the kind of teams that Mr Glickenhaus is describing in his quote (Heck, Sebring was won overall by one of such team in 1983!) and they would thus return to that historic standard by opening the series to Porsche Cup and TA2-cars. At the same time, both specifications are considerably faster than GT4-cars (the fastest TA2-cars managed a 1:49 at DIS), so lap-time differences to the faster classes would be less of a problem. Admitting cars of both specifications (Porsche-Cup and TA2) would also allow IMSA to tap into two of the largest amateur racing communities in the US and internationally and could easily lift grid figures for Daytona and Sebring back up to 60+ cars.

[canaglia]

I agree with ratel statement, despite remaining in the same weight/power ratio of about 1260-1340kgx500-540hp, gt3 cars have become way more expensive during all these years, just look at new R8 evo that costs about 400.000€ while in 2009 the first model of R8 LMS was "only" 260.000€. And there are gt3 like 488 and new vantage gt3 that are even more expensive....
Increase performances would insanely increase costs and the private oriented gt3 toy will fall apart basically becoming what GTLM/GTE actually is.

[broadrun96]

Down one team for a bit with Paul Miller skipping Daytona and Sebring for a completely understandable reason. His dealerships have been hurt with the NJ 80 day shutdown and staff furloughed there. The race team has also been furloughed. He couldn't see racing with that out there still. I would expect to see more races skipped by them as they are now race by race for the season.

[S griffin]

That's a shame, but just shows how tough it is for the teams at the moment. I wonder if anymore will go. I think the series will survive, but just won't quite have as many cars as it has done

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That's a shame, but just shows how tough it is for the teams at the moment. I wonder if anymore will go. I think the series will survive, but just won't quite have as many cars as it has done

At this stage even if DPI, GTLM, and GTD have as little as 2 cars each when the green flag drops. I'll be happy to have it and will support it. Fingers crossed that fans can be invited to the V.I.R round. I plan to go to it.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

At this stage even if DPI, GTLM, and GTD have as little as 2 cars each when the green flag drops. I'll be happy to have it and will support it. Fingers crossed that fans can be invited to the V.I.R round. I plan to go to it.

I was wondering about the appetite for fans at live races this fall as well. Right now they're planning on reopening things, including races, for fans but who knows what will happen when the time comes.

[broadrun96]

Given the climb in some areas, some climb in case count only some cases and hospitalizations, I'm thinking it's likely a zero fan season. Road Atlanta just cancelled the drift event, although in honesty it sounded like Formula Drift cancelled not the track. No fans allowed for the Global Time attack series that ran the same weekend, July 3-4.

I'm hopeful for Petit but honestly I'm not sure it will happen with fans sadly. Possibly fans but no camping but I think they'd go no fans or full open. It's outside, open spaces but who knows. My 400 bucks on the fan pass was well spent this year it seems

[ATLFalconsFAN]

So long as it goes on and fans are allowed I'm planning on attending the round at Laguna Seca. Just practice social distancing and wear a face mask. If everyone did that this thing would be much more manageable.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

So long as it goes on and fans are allowed I'm planning on attending the round at Laguna Seca. Just practice social distancing and wear a face mask. If everyone did that this thing would be much more manageable.

No thank you on the masks. Not necessary. Fear of the virus is far more damaging than the virus itself. Virus does not spread in outdoor weather. Especially when there is sunshine. Nothing to worry about. Open up the race tracks for the fans!

[carbsmith]

However you look at it most sports car events (some street courses with fixed grandstand areas aside) would not be such close quarters for spectators that it's relevant either way.

Road America will definitely be planned to have fans considering MotoAmerica and IndyCar are scheduled to race with them in the weeks preceding.

[broadrun96]

And the Shadowfest is still scheduled to run in July as well. Wanted to make the trip to and see the track and one of every type of Shadow, F1, CanAm, F5000, on track but that's definitely out of the schedule this year sadly.

The problem is our rule makers who can't articulate why some things and not others. I work outdoors and inspect trees, rarely ever see another person on site and don't really need to, but we can't work because others work inside and it's not fair to make different rules.

[broadrun96]

It had to happen at some point, apparently MSR is accepting cryptocurrency as payment for sponsorship.

https://racer.com/2020/06/12/digital...sr-heinricher/

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

No thank you on the masks. Not necessary. Fear of the virus is far more damaging than the virus itself. Virus does not spread in outdoor weather. Especially when there is sunshine. Nothing to worry about. Open up the race tracks for the fans!

Ah the irony of this comment coming from someone with the screen name “masked racer”. 🤦*♂️