[WTCC] WTCC 2009: News, Rumours, Entries...

[Bramzel]

With the facelift of the Leon MY2009 I guess the BMW isn't the only one with some changed details this year





Pictures: Autoweek.nl

Changes; new head- and tail lights, reshaped front bumper, reshaped wing above the rear window.

[Matt]

It's still ugly as sin.

Are they going back to Porto this year?

[Stefvh]

Normally, yep.

[10tacle]

WTCC: Introduction of turbo engines delayed

The introduction of turbo charged 1.6 liter engines in the World Touring Car Championship has, according to our information, been moved forward due to the economical situation in the world. The earliest point that we could see 1.6 engines in the WTCC is 2011.

[stedevil]

Great, because in bad times people for sure are going to buy big thirsty NA engines in their new cars, so that is relevant for car companies...

[JMeissner]

Well, stedevil, thats not really the point. Its expensive to introduce completely new engines.

[stedevil]

Well, problem is also the switch to up to date engines is long over due. Now they just found 1 more new excuse to delay a sane progress for a few more years. It's been keeping out potential new S2000 carbrands for years already during good time, so it's for sure not going to help attract new factory teams during bad.

[JMeissner]

Well, the current financial situation is hardly something anyone could have predicted. And introducing new engines currently would just be pointless as there would be little or no interest in investing money in it.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Well, the current financial situation is hardly something anyone could have predicted. And introducing new engines currently would just be pointless as there would be little or no interest in investing money in it.

I absolutely agree. Like I was saying yesterday (how weird, uh?) the best way was going to be dealying the project of a couple of years. Progress is very welcome, especially if it means getting racing cars more similar to the road cars. On the other hand, put yourself into the shoes of a privateer: with the current economical situation, it is so hard to find the sponsors and if you have your own business it might be affected by the general situation of the economy. So you barely find the budget to race for 1 year with the car you bought when you were more wealthy, and then suddenly the Fia comes and completely ignores your situation, stating that now you have to but new components for about half of the car, with so many expenses. Like Johan wrote in the article, it's very important for Wrc and Wtcc to collaborate: I can only imagine the great things that could be done if you could drive with virtually the same car in both series.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

On the other hand, put yourself into the shoes of a privateer:

I am. If we would have TP in 2010 a privateer wont have a TP engine 2010, because the factory teams would be developing them and the regs would be in constant flux trying to keep things relatively fair. Very likely the situation would be the same in 2011, leaving a privateer to have TP in 2012 at the earliest.

Delaying TP 1 year and you just move the schedule +1 year and privateers will see TP in 2013 instead of 2012.

Now explain to me how having a TP in 2012 or 2013 will affect the budget of a privateer in 2010.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Well, the current financial situation is hardly something anyone could have predicted.

Exactly how big the crash would be was hard to see, but that a big crash was coming was plainly obvious for anyone bothering to look. I eg sold all my stocks well over a year ago, because I saw where things where going, and sold anything related to the US 2 years before that.

And introducing new engines currently would just be pointless as there would be little or no interest in investing money in it.

If there is no interest, then what does it hurt to allow it? If you allow it, the manufacturers will sort out by themselves if it's interesting or not...

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

If there is no interest, then what does it hurt to allow it? If you allow it, the manufacturers will sort out by themselves if it's interesting or not...

Makes much more sense to decide together with the manufacturers the timing of the change, doesn't it?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

I am. If we would have TP in 2010 a privateer wont have a TP engine 2010, because the factory teams would be developing them and the regs would be in constant flux trying to keep things relatively fair. Very likely the situation would be the same in 2011, leaving a privateer to have TP in 2012 at the earliest.

Delaying TP 1 year and you just move the schedule +1 year and privateers will see TP in 2013 instead of 2012.

Now explain to me how having a TP in 2012 or 2013 will affect the budget of a privateer in 2010.

You run the s2000 car as a privateer, the manufacturer runs the 1.6turbo car. Developement of the s2000 stops, the privateer finds himself hopelessly in the back of the grid.
Also, if you have a +1 year schedule, manufacturers interested have more time to develop the new cars, they're ready for the next year. I don't think that the rules changes could be such a big deal, as far as you don't completely change the engines' structure. It's possible to see minor changes (I mean minor in terms of costs) such as limiting rpms or putting more weight on a car, but I don't see how would it affect a privateer more than now, as these things are already happening today, and have happened in the past with BMW.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Makes much more sense to decide together with the manufacturers the timing of the change, doesn't it?

Problem is, with all the politics in WTCC, some manufacturer will always oppose changes and try to block them. Eg, why dont we still have E85 regulations? There where promised for 2007 IIRC.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Developement of the s2000 stops, the privateer finds himself hopelessly in the back of the grid.

You mean like Coronel? He won a race as late as this year. Also, if the privateers have the same equipment as the factory teams, who is doing the development and progress?

manufacturers interested have more time to develop the new cars, they're ready for the next year.

And whats wrong with developing during an ongoing season? SEAT did that in 2007 with the TDI and Volvo in STCC with engine in 2007 and car in 2008. Not providing regs literally bans that possibility completely. S2000D regs where avaliable long before we saw a TD on the track.

[helterskelter]

I mean that if the manufacturers focus on a car not available for sale to the customers, the already existing customers will not receive any updates for the current cars. So if, say, BMW chooses to go for the 1.6turbo and seat decides not to (and keep improving the petrol car like they are now), a Seat customer like Boardman, for instance, will see his car updated while Tanev (Proteam) will not receive any and will find himself behind the Seats. This is just an example of how things would go. If the manufacturers have to introduce the new cars at the same time they are forced to keep on improving to keep their cars up to date with those of the opponents, and the privateers will receive benefits from that. Then, when the new technology is introduced, everyone will have the same opportunities to have the best possible car.

[Matt]

Are we going to get the 18" wheels?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

So if, say, BMW chooses to go for the 1.6turbo and seat decides not to (and keep improving the petrol car like they are now), a Seat customer like Boardman, for instance, will see his car updated while Tanev (Proteam) will not receive any and will find himself behind the Seats. This is just an example of how things would go.

Yes, that can happen. In fact that already does happen, all the time, continuously. Eg the Alfas and Hondas. So what do we call that, business as usual?

Then, when the new technology is introduced, everyone will have the same opportunities to have the best possible car.

WTCC is not a one make series, so what you say can never happen.

[pericu]

¿Anybody knows if this week Seat will train in Montmeló's circuit? ¿Only Seat or more teams? thanks

[helterskelter]

They all have the same opportunities and all had the same amount of years to study projects for new cars: if one does it badly and the other one does it better, doesn't have to depend from the rules but from the ability of the developers.
Don't you think that not having stuff like Alda and Honda would be something to try to avoid in the future? N Technology had to give up after two years of not really being a works team, so maybe it's time to take these new rules as an opportuinity to start it all over in a better way, enabling everyone to enter the championship the way it should be done in a touring car series: low costs, checkable parts and same opportunities to everyone, both works and privateers. Only that way the series will grow, have more manufacturers and be more stable.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

They all have the same opportunities and all had the same amount of years to study projects for new cars:

Why do you insist on picking out example after example that just dont correspond to reality?
Eg how in your wildest imagination can you think that the Lada factory team, just starting up, has the same amount of years for anything as eg BMW?

Don't you think that not having stuff like Alda and Honda would be something to try to avoid in the future?

Car brands come and go, car models come and go, drivers come and go. The world is not static. Again, WTCC is not a 1 make series, there will always be relative differences. No point in fooling oneself with impossible dreams about how that can be changed.

[brucelok2003]

I think it's better to end this "endless" discussion, okay?

And any news for Pierre Yves-Corthals? Is he still in the series? or in somewhere?

[JMeissner]

Yes, dear forum knights, return to topic now.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by brucejouanny

I think it's better to end this "endless" discussion, okay?

And any news for Pierre Yves-Corthals? Is he still in the series? or in somewhere?

There is no official news, but it looks like he's out of the series. Last year he missed the last 2 races because he didn't have the budget.
Just to clarify that the 'opportunity' thing meant that in theory anyone could have started from the beginning. If the new technology is introduced, it all starts over from scratch. Just that.

[Robbe]

Marin Colak joins with his own team in a petrol-Leon!

http://www.fiawtcc.com/fiawtcc/sport_sto1839436.shtml

Independent's trophy is not looking bad!

Engstler, Poulsen, D'Aste, Tanev, Boardman, Colak already confirmed, and we are still waiting for second Proteam and Wiechers drivers, Okyay, Campos Honda and maybe Corthals or Nogues or a Lada team!