The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Acid09 PLEASE get over yourself and your ridiculous, excessive Audi hating.

No matter what manufacturer is racing against Audi, you will be sure to jump on that thread and rant about how terrible Audi is.

If Porsche starts winning next year and the following years, will all of you be complaining about their budget too???

He's right

Audi's excessive spending might kill the series. Costs rising is not good for the sport

If a manufacturer wants to have a shot at victory they must spend crazy amounts of money, to match said Audi.

And sport car racing isnt the best way to advertise your brand, thus having little return of their massive spending (if they dont win)
that's why F1 exists

ACO should introduce a Manufacturer cost cast system

If Toyota wins, it would be the best thing to happen to le mans since 2006

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I can only pretend to know anything about the budgets and plans Toyota has laid out for the next five years, and which part of that involves different forms of motorsport.

However … If Toyota is planning to build a 2014 car (and probably campaign it (probably in updated form) for a few seasons, than what would be the point of getting into a spending war with Audi right now?

Audi has a car it has been fine-tuning for a while, and is racing to rules it has basically bought. Next year, there will be more competition, there will be more companies lobbying for fair rules for petrol cars, and everyone will have a brand-new chassis.

As for Toyota being the biggest auto maker in the world … it is also one of the biggest manufacturers of affordable cars, where the profit margin is lowest. Audi on the other hand sells cars in a range where a higher price is a positive, not a negative.

Audi sells (at least some) car where exclusivity is more important than price—customers pay more knowing that only the select few can afford the car. Toyota sells a lot of cars to people who would by a Hyundai instead if the dealer offered a bigger cash rebate or a $500 gas-station debit card.

But whatever … Toyota nor Audi are racing to make racing good. They are racing to make money. Toyota did a good job last year with limited resources (and spent more than it planned.) It will probably do a good job this year. If Toyota wins or loses, it made a race out of what would have been a joke.

People are losing “patients” with Toyota? Yeah, how much better if they would take their tiny budget and leave, eh?

On the other hand, if Toyota can get decent results again this year, it is more likely to be there the year after … and how awesome will 2014 be if there are half-a-dozen different cars with a legitimate shot at winning every race?

I am not a “glass-half-full” kind of guy, but I am not a “pour it out if it isn’t full” person either. Toyota flat-out saved WEC last year, and is the only team this year giving Audi even a slight challenge. I‘ll take it.

Thanks for adding a dose of realism to this thread. Great post.

[TF110]

Toyota has a new ceo in charge from their days in F1. Akio Toyoda doesn't mind racing. But doesn't like wasting money. The cost of the F1 budget was high according to people, but a lot of that was spent on the facilities at TMG. You know Toyota is the only other maker besides Ferrari to use their own technology their own facilities and their own engine/car from the ground up while it was in F1? They had to do that from basically scratch. Ferrari has a long history and has built up their team over decades. Toyota had to do it in ~5 years from the start of the GT-One program. Other F1 teams have 'taken over' previous teams. Red Bull/Jaguar etc. Don't forget TMG is a business as well. Ferrari are the biggest client currently designing their F138 in TMG's windtunnel. So the budget issue could be from the desire to have TMG run as a profitable business, not just a giant lmp race team. I still believe they have what it takes to win and we haven't seen their real pace yet.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by deggis

Two new vids, explaining the hybrid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM26Aet0MKo

Nice (10 min) promo video with TS010 and TS020:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YFilIVJKgM

What a sexy picture.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I can only pretend to know anything about the budgets and plans Toyota has laid out for the next five years, and which part of that involves different forms of motorsport.

However … If Toyota is planning to build a 2014 car (and probably campaign it (probably in updated form) for a few seasons, than what would be the point of getting into a spending war with Audi right now?

Audi has a car it has been fine-tuning for a while, and is racing to rules it has basically bought. Next year, there will be more competition, there will be more companies lobbying for fair rules for petrol cars, and everyone will have a brand-new chassis.

As for Toyota being the biggest auto maker in the world … it is also one of the biggest manufacturers of affordable cars, where the profit margin is lowest. Audi on the other hand sells cars in a range where a higher price is a positive, not a negative.

Audi sells (at least some) car where exclusivity is more important than price—customers pay more knowing that only the select few can afford the car. Toyota sells a lot of cars to people who would by a Hyundai instead if the dealer offered a bigger cash rebate or a $500 gas-station debit card.

But whatever … Toyota nor Audi are racing to make racing good. They are racing to make money. Toyota did a good job last year with limited resources (and spent more than it planned.) It will probably do a good job this year. If Toyota wins or loses, it made a race out of what would have been a joke.

People are losing “patients” with Toyota? Yeah, how much better if they would take their tiny budget and leave, eh?

On the other hand, if Toyota can get decent results again this year, it is more likely to be there the year after … and how awesome will 2014 be if there are half-a-dozen different cars with a legitimate shot at winning every race?

I am not a “glass-half-full” kind of guy, but I am not a “pour it out if it isn’t full” person either. Toyota flat-out saved WEC last year, and is the only team this year giving Audi even a slight challenge. I‘ll take it.

Another +1 for a great post.

[chernaudi]

Problem is that if one looks at Toyota's track record, they've been known for outspending virtually everyone in terms of their motorsports programs, and not getting results that would justify the spending.

Outside of NASCAR, Toyota hasn't really had the best of time with spending a budget which would seem to ensure success, only for it to blow up in their faces, and it's been that what since IMSA GTP ended. Their '92-93 WSC/LM program, I'll bet that Toyota outspent Peugeot, but on track, Peugeot usually had the edge.

LM '98-99, Toyota outspent everyone (Including Audi, Acid!), but only had a 9th and 2nd place finishes to show for it, and 2/3 of their entries ended in DNFs. Here, mechanical failures and accidents, and poor luck, have a lot to answer for, but Toyota still outspent a relatively modest BMW program, but they were able to fight on even terms in '99.

But the biggest fail was F1, where, for 8 seasons, Toyota outspent the entire grid pretty much, and only got mediocre results. No bum luck or anything like that there, just pure, unadulterated, boldface corporate mismanagement.

To me, it's a case of thrice bitten, once shy.

And the issue of ROI has been brought up as far as Toyota goes, and it seems that the bean counters at Toyota City would rather dump untold sums of money--at least as much as Ford or certainly GM--into NASCAR, which to me, doesn't seem to fit Toyota's model of "racing what we sell", but, more rather, Toyota's model of dominating a motorsport category and using it to generate buzz.

One advantage, of course, is that in NASCAR, there's no "factory" teams, just a bunch of "privateers" who never the less receive tons of factory support from the manufacturers. There being no need for a factory team, while there being a massive base for customer teams probably appeal to Toyota and TRD.

Again, Audi and Toyota--and any other car maker--go racing to advertize and make money as much as product development and R&D. Which, sadly, is my point. It would seem that LMP1 would be a great platform for Toyota to fully exploit and develop their hybrid technology.

The saddest thing for me to see TMG struggling is two fold. One, this, unlike the F1 program, has an excellent base for success. The right people are in the right places and they have the talent to succeed, which was only just starting to happen for the F1 team when the plug got pulled. But what we have here is that while that's going well, it seems that Toyota Motor Corporation is rather gun-shy on pulling the trigger on the program. Part of it is planning and timing--Toyota only planned on a partial WEC season last year, for example.

But the other part is the stagnant Japanese economy and, above all, the fact that Toyota spending so much on motorsports programs that turn out to be money pits for the results achieved has become a bad, stale joke.

To be fair, Audi have outspent TMG by probably a sizable amount--by sizable, I mean huge. But that's Audi's prerogative. They've pushed the technical envelopes and devoutly touted that they're "racing what we/we'll sell" as far as technology, the reason why auto racing began for the car makers. They've also dumped untold millions of dollars over the years supporting stuff like the LM24 and the ALMS and now the WEC though advertizing and promotion, stuff that should seem like a positive for the sport. No other manufacturer, with the possible exception of Peugeot, has done that in recent years, and certainly Audi can be seen as the stabilizing for for prototype racing the past 13 years--they've been there when others withdrew.

Is the Audi Sport budget excessive? Compared to other factory team budgets at LM, it's not entirely out of line with what some teams are spending in the late '90s, even accounting inflation. But LMP1, as the ACO and the FIA define it, is a "tech-class", and tech, like speed, does cost money, especially when such "tech"--alternative fuels and hybrid systems--are in their infancy.

It's like the diesel regs. Yes, Audi had the idea for diesel and ethanol cars at LM, and other alternative fuels, but the ACO only pulled the trigger when they approached Renault and Peugeot to join in. IMO, it's easy to forget how much French national motorsports pride and nationalism motivated such regs in the first place to get a French manufacturer back on the grid at LM in the top class as much as Audi having an eye at the future.

But back to Toyota. I do feel that they've had a wishy-washy support of this program, and they've nickel and dimed TMG almost to death over this. When you consider how that Toyota is the largest car company in the world and how much they make in profits and how I see LM has having much more relevance to their product line than say NASCAR does, it baffles me how they've taken such a gun-shy approach to this project.

It's as Marshall Pruett said, no one knows why Toyota pulled the trigger on the LM program in the first place. No one has a clue, and those that do, aren't saying a damn thing about it. Toyota's reasons and motivation seems to be one of the great mysteries of motorsports in recent times.

But to pull the trigger on the LM program and then not even seemingly fund it properly, that's totally difficult to fathom or figure out. Perhaps the bean counters in Toyota City wanted to keep TMG busy (TMG is owned by TMC, BTW), but yet saw more ROI in their Super GT and NASCAR programs. The real reason for all of this is difficult to understand or surmise.

But none the less, if you're racing against Audi, who are willing to throw everything that they have at a goal that they want, you need to have a similar mind set, including total commitment. You need that on a stage this big.

Of course, I feel sorry for the guys at TMG, who have the people and talent to get the job done, but not the support. TMG's commitment is unquestionable, they want to win as much as anybody out there, and that includes Audi. Toyota's commitment to this program, though, doesn't shout total commitment, and, IMO, they've dropped the ball on TMG.

I do have my own theory, in that this might just be an elaborate toe-in-water exercise by Toyota to get ready for what seems to be a more appealing incarnation of the LMP1 class in 2014. In their previous serious LM attempts, they came in as the new kid on the block, and they lacked the experience of their adversaries, and seemed to suffer from it. Maybe if they get a feel for what to expect and get some races under their belt, that experience will benefit them next year when they probably will go for a gung-ho LM program.

And I also don't get what's been said about Audi chasing away manufacturers--only reason Peugeot bailed out was because their road car division was hemorrhaging money, and it had been that way since 2008, and Peugeot, IMO, had to do something to have a good PR story, certainly one better than continuing something that was seen as discretionary spending at a time when they were laying off thousands of workers. Certainly not Audi's fault that Peugeot's road car branch was in such disarray.

But back to my point, you have Porsche returning, Toyota want to come back, and there's rumors of a Nissan program. I believe that Audi kept things going by supporting a series and class when few have (Peugeot and Toyota excepted), and providing a bench mark for those to aim for. Also, with the new regs pushing for efficiency, inline with the desires of car makers and the public, the time couldn't be better for a surge of teams and manufacturers to come in.

I find it rather unfair to bash Audi for continuing to support the LMP1 category when it's seemed to be on virtual collapse. Would you have rather have them pull out and go for greener pastures and have LMP1 as we know and, and what it will become, die out?

I'll give credit to Toyota for stepping into the breach that Peugeot left, and for doing a lot with relatively little, and I can defend Toyota Motorsport for doing the best they can with what they have. However, I can't defend Toyota Motor Corporation's handing of this program, and, IMO, they should be held accountable for shafting TMG out of a lot, not just with this, but with the F1 program, too.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm with Maelochs - 100%. Great post.

I'll second that. Great post Maelochs!

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Problem is that if one looks at Toyota's track record, they've been known for outspending virtually everyone in terms of their motorsports programs, and not getting results that would justify the spending.

Outside of NASCAR, Toyota hasn't really had the best of time with spending a budget which would seem to ensure success, only for it to blow up in their faces, and it's been that what since IMSA GTP ended. Their '92-93 WSC/LM program, I'll bet that Toyota outspent Peugeot, but on track, Peugeot usually had the edge.

LM '98-99, Toyota outspent everyone (Including Audi, Acid!), but only had a 9th and 2nd place finishes to show for it, and 2/3 of their entries ended in DNFs. Here, mechanical failures and accidents, and poor luck, have a lot to answer for, but Toyota still outspent a relatively modest BMW program, but they were able to fight on even terms in '99.

But the biggest fail was F1, where, for 8 seasons, Toyota outspent the entire grid pretty much, and only got mediocre results. No bum luck or anything like that there, just pure, unadulterated, boldface corporate mismanagement.

To me, it's a case of thrice bitten, once shy.

And the issue of ROI has been brought up as far as Toyota goes, and it seems that the bean counters at Toyota City would rather dump untold sums of money--at least as much as Ford or certainly GM--into NASCAR, which to me, doesn't seem to fit Toyota's model of "racing what we sell", but, more rather, Toyota's model of dominating a motorsport category and using it to generate buzz.

One advantage, of course, is that in NASCAR, there's no "factory" teams, just a bunch of "privateers" who never the less receive tons of factory support from the manufacturers. There being no need for a factory team, while there being a massive base for customer teams probably appeal to Toyota and TRD.

Again, Audi and Toyota--and any other car maker--go racing to advertize and make money as much as product development and R&D. Which, sadly, is my point. It would seem that LMP1 would be a great platform for Toyota to fully exploit and develop their hybrid technology.

The saddest thing for me to see TMG struggling is two fold. One, this, unlike the F1 program, has an excellent base for success. The right people are in the right places and they have the talent to succeed, which was only just starting to happen for the F1 team when the plug got pulled. But what we have here is that while that's going well, it seems that Toyota Motor Corporation is rather gun-shy on pulling the trigger on the program. Part of it is planning and timing--Toyota only planned on a partial WEC season last year, for example.

But the other part is the stagnant Japanese economy and, above all, the fact that Toyota spending so much on motorsports programs that turn out to be money pits for the results achieved has become a bad, stale joke.

To be fair, Audi have outspent TMG by probably a sizable amount--by sizable, I mean huge. But that's Audi's prerogative. They've pushed the technical envelopes and devoutly touted that they're "racing what we/we'll sell" as far as technology, the reason why auto racing began for the car makers. They've also dumped untold millions of dollars over the years supporting stuff like the LM24 and the ALMS and now the WEC though advertizing and promotion, stuff that should seem like a positive for the sport. No other manufacturer, with the possible exception of Peugeot, has done that in recent years, and certainly Audi can be seen as the stabilizing for for prototype racing the past 13 years--they've been there when others withdrew.

Is the Audi Sport budget excessive? Compared to other factory team budgets at LM, it's not entirely out of line with what some teams are spending in the late '90s, even accounting inflation. But LMP1, as the ACO and the FIA define it, is a "tech-class", and tech, like speed, does cost money, especially when such "tech"--alternative fuels and hybrid systems--are in their infancy.

It's like the diesel regs. Yes, Audi had the idea for diesel and ethanol cars at LM, and other alternative fuels, but the ACO only pulled the trigger when they approached Renault and Peugeot to join in. IMO, it's easy to forget how much French national motorsports pride and nationalism motivated such regs in the first place to get a French manufacturer back on the grid at LM in the top class as much as Audi having an eye at the future.

But back to Toyota. I do feel that they've had a wishy-washy support of this program, and they've nickel and dimed TMG almost to death over this. When you consider how that Toyota is the largest car company in the world and how much they make in profits and how I see LM has having much more relevance to their product line than say NASCAR does, it baffles me how they've taken such a gun-shy approach to this project.

It's as Marshall Pruett said, no one knows why Toyota pulled the trigger on the LM program in the first place. No one has a clue, and those that do, aren't saying a damn thing about it. Toyota's reasons and motivation seems to be one of the great mysteries of motorsports in recent times.

But to pull the trigger on the LM program and then not even seemingly fund it properly, that's totally difficult to fathom or figure out. Perhaps the bean counters in Toyota City wanted to keep TMG busy (TMG is owned by TMC, BTW), but yet saw more ROI in their Super GT and NASCAR programs. The real reason for all of this is difficult to understand or surmise.

But none the less, if you're racing against Audi, who are willing to throw everything that they have at a goal that they want, you need to have a similar mind set, including total commitment. You need that on a stage this big.

Of course, I feel sorry for the guys at TMG, who have the people and talent to get the job done, but not the support. TMG's commitment is unquestionable, they want to win as much as anybody out there, and that includes Audi. Toyota's commitment to this program, though, doesn't shout total commitment, and, IMO, they've dropped the ball on TMG.

I do have my own theory, in that this might just be an elaborate toe-in-water exercise by Toyota to get ready for what seems to be a more appealing incarnation of the LMP1 class in 2014. In their previous serious LM attempts, they came in as the new kid on the block, and they lacked the experience of their adversaries, and seemed to suffer from it. Maybe if they get a feel for what to expect and get some races under their belt, that experience will benefit them next year when they probably will go for a gung-ho LM program.

And I also don't get what's been said about Audi chasing away manufacturers--only reason Peugeot bailed out was because their road car division was hemorrhaging money, and it had been that way since 2008, and Peugeot, IMO, had to do something to have a good PR story, certainly one better than continuing something that was seen as discretionary spending at a time when they were laying off thousands of workers. Certainly not Audi's fault that Peugeot's road car branch was in such disarray.

But back to my point, you have Porsche returning, Toyota want to come back, and there's rumors of a Nissan program. I believe that Audi kept things going by supporting a series and class when few have (Peugeot and Toyota excepted), and providing a bench mark for those to aim for. Also, with the new regs pushing for efficiency, inline with the desires of car makers and the public, the time couldn't be better for a surge of teams and manufacturers to come in.

I find it rather unfair to bash Audi for continuing to support the LMP1 category when it's seemed to be on virtual collapse. Would you have rather have them pull out and go for greener pastures and have LMP1 as we know and, and what it will become, die out?

I'll give credit to Toyota for stepping into the breach that Peugeot left, and for doing a lot with relatively little, and I can defend Toyota Motorsport for doing the best they can with what they have. However, I can't defend Toyota Motor Corporation's handing of this program, and, IMO, they should be held accountable for shafting TMG out of a lot, not just with this, but with the F1 program, too.

those are some pretty good points right there.

[TF110]

They outspent who exactly? In F1, Ferrari and McLaren were said to spend more. You can argue Red Bull too. What about the budgets for WRC? SuperGT? IndyCar/CART? How about CanAm? Pikes Peak? Touring Car? Dakar? Baja? Nascar (cup, nationwide, trucks)? I don't see them outspending and underachieving. And I don't think you can name a company that is that involved in motorsport, but some reason people think theyre penny pinching.

So how do you know what their budgets are? Does anyone know? Do you have to spend $150 million to compete with Audi? LeMans hasn't even happened. If Toyota wins what will be the consensus then? Will there still be cries of them "shafting TMG"?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Acid09 PLEASE get over yourself and your ridiculous, excessive Audi hating.

It has nothing to do with hating, I just want this championship to survive and Audi's behavior is putting it at risk.

I know that Audi fanboys like you don't care about that, you will go wherever they will go and mindlessly cheer for them while we will be stuck with the remains of their actions.

[Aysedasi]

Oh give it a rest people.......

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It has nothing to do with hating, I just want this championship to survive and Audi's behavior is putting it at risk.

I know that Audi fanboys like you don't care about that, you will go wherever they will go and mindlessly cheer for them while we will be stuck with the remains of their actions.

Wrong. You are a hater so please don't try and justify yourself to me with transparent excuses.

I'm an Audi fanboy, so that makes you what? A "who'sever racing against Audi fanboy?"

It's all petty bickering but you always pop up with anti Audi remarks and it gets old

[Eryk03]

@Up true

[bjohnsonsmith]

Now Toyota have returned to Le Mans this year, that should be the end of 'The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) thread'.

[Acid09]

Motorsport Total has the scoop on the 2014 Toyota:

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/..._13061903.html

They stick with the V8 petrol engine and will add two hybrid systems, including one at the front of the car.

[Tim240z]

Hmmm... I bet they use the petrol engine as a generator under braking... have it pop in neutral and run at a fixed RPM generating electricity. Then have the conventional KERS type generation.

Very interesting.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

They stick with the V8 petrol engine and will add two hybrid systems, including one at the front of the car.

This again shows that Toyota are on a very tight budget.

Instead of developing a state-of-the-art small turbocharged engine, Toyota is sticking direct injection on the existing V8.

So they will be running the engine that Porsche used in 2008 in the RS Spyder and did not find suitable for the 2014 rules

Let us hope that they will increase the displacement a bit, because a high revving V8 is not very fuel efficient.

[Japanese Samurai]

I don't think so.
That's because Toyota already has NRE (Nippon Racing Engine/2 liter DI turbo engine) for Super GT/Super Formula.

[gwyllion]

Okay, that would be a much better choice. Let us hope that they go that road.

[Tim240z]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

This again shows that Toyota are on a very tight budget.

Instead of developing a state-of-the-art small turbocharged engine, Toyota is sticking direct injection on the existing V8.

So they will be running the engine that Porsche used in 2008 in the RS Spyder and did not find suitable for the 2014 rules

Let us hope that they will increase the displacement a bit, because a high revving V8 is not very fuel efficient.

Hows the restriction going to work? A limitation on total fuel injection capacity or an actual aperture that only lets X amount of fuel per lap?

My theory on the dual hybrid system is that the petrol engine is used during its time not powering the drive train converting potential petrol energy through governed injection system. This way it can keep its bottleneck running at near 100% for its entire lap. A normal petrol engine only uses its injection system under acceleration... Lots of unused restricted injection time.

[gwyllion]

A combination of maximum fuel flow (limiting the power output) and a fuel volume limitation per lap. Fuel efficiency will be extremely important.

I doubt that they will implement the solution that you propse. It is better to use the mechanical energy of the combustion engine directly, instead of converting it to electric energy and back to mechanical energy, since the latter introduces additional conversion losses.

[Tim240z]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

A combination of maximum fuel flow (limiting the power output) and a fuel volume limitation per lap. Fuel efficiency will be extremely important.

I doubt that they will implement the solution that you propse. It is better to use the mechanical energy of the combustion engine directly, instead of converting it to electric energy and back to mechanical energy, since the latter introduces additional conversion losses.

I think the mechanical energy will be used conventionally... but in moments of braking, the gerabox put into neutral, engine spun up to optimal generating RPM, and the generator engaged. All the time spend braking around LeMans is time potential energy isn't being pumped through the only restriction they have.

[gwyllion]

I do not see the point of that. During moments of braking, the electric MGUs are already converting kinetic braking energy into electric energy. Why would they burn valuable fuel by revving the engine higher than needed?

[Tim240z]

The other hybrid system should generate more then enough drag under braking.

But if its true that there will be a limit on fuel usage per lap, then it wouldn't be worth it. If it were just a restriction on fuel flow per second, then I could see this as a very plausible solution

[TF110]

Rebellion has spoken a little bit about the engine side for next year. They talked of leaning towards a larger displacement V8 with lower revs. I think Toyota will go the I4 turbo route like their Super GT/ Super Formula.