[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

HI EVERYONE! I’m a newcomer here, but I read this forum for a long while. My english is very unperfect, sorry for that. I have some questions, I hope you can answer it, or you have an „close-to-true”minds. Thank you in anticipation for your every single answer!

Welcome.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

So the questions:

-What is the current (latest) situation about the coupe/open question? (air condition, aero, drag, speed, pit work, „in rain”, etc.) Hard question: what is the better way now: coupe or open?

Coupes will no longer get the bigger air restrictor to accomodate air conditioning. On the other hand, the cockpit temperature rules will be relaxed, such that air conditioning might not be necessary.

From an aerodynamic point, the coupe shape is the way to go because it produces less drag for the same downforce (or more downforce for the same drag). With the smaller engines next year, this aero advantage is perhaps even more important.

Since last year, open cars no longer have an advantage in pitstops because only 2 mechanics are allowed to do the tyre change (instead of 4 in the past).

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

-The FIN: will it be obligate, or just an option? In LMP2 as well? Can the constructors build together this fin with the rear wing (like McLaren F1) or no?

Mandatory for the new LMP1 and LMP2. The current LMP cars are allowed to run next year with extra restrictions. They don't need the fin.

I believe the fin can be connected to the rear wing, but a F-duct is explicitely forbidden.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

-Is there a real chance that Audi and Pug will hold their R18 and 909 projects for a year and prefer R15 and 908 grandfathering? Which would worth better: long wait for the finalised restrictor rules and after proccessing the development for the new cars, or better to do it just for 2012 and using for an extra year the old cars?

Highly unlikely. The grandfathering will be such that the 2010 LMP1 cars will slower than the 2011 LMP1 cars. This is done as an incentive for manufacturers to build cars according to the new rules.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

-What is your mind about the hybrid rules? Is it clear enough for every contructor now? Will we see in 2011 only diesel+KERS cars or real Diesel Hybrids? What about the current Porsche, Pug and Zytek systems? Real hibrid just years later?

I don't understand how you differentiate between KERS and real hybrids. The hybrid system can only be operated with the accelerator pedal, i.e., a push-to-pass button is not allowed. So the system is always functioning as a way to increase power and/or decrease fuel consumption. In order to called a "hybrid" according the ACO, the car must be able to drive in the pitlane (400 m) at a speed of 60 km/h solely on the power of the hybrid system, so without the combustion engine.

The energy can be stored electrically (e.g., battery, supercap) or mechanically (e.g., flywheel). So the Williams Hybrid system that is used in the Porsche 911 hybrid is allowed.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

-Which are the really / best possible production engines for LMP2 in 2011? Road going diesels in P2 is a real possibility or only gasoline?

Only petrol. Normally aspirated up to 5.0 liter and turbo charged up to 3.2 liter.

Any GT2 engine can be used. HPD, Judd, IES (Nissan), Sodemo (BMW) will (probably) provide engines as well.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

-Is there any chance for GT1 and GT3 cars to go to Le Mans with this new rules? Or we will see only a GT2 field in 2011? G Apollo, MC12? F GT? R8 LMS? Alpina?

No, only GT2.

[Captain Nemo]

g missing, sorry...

A little refinement for some of my earlier questions:

Grandfathering: If Audi and Pug would stay with its old models with reduced speed, the newly built 2011 LMP-s would beat them? It’s clear? Now, they are much faster than any other. This speed advantage would enough for deliberation to find out what would be the situation after grandfathering. New petrol LMP1s would be significant faster than the currend, grandfathered diesels?

Hybrid thing: I understand the 2011 rules (pit line with only electric mode, etc.) but I didn’t undertsand clear Audi’s a Pug’s plan for 2011. They want to build a car for this rules instantly or just build a car with some energy recovery system additionally for their diesel engines? Peugeot said, it will be a diesel hybrid. Audi said (whispers) it will be a V6 TDI+KERS. It’s two completely different ways?

GT thing: The 2011 rule book clearly says only GT2 cars will be allowed? Not only just GT1 will go out? What is your opinion, what would do the current GT1 teams? JLOC will come with Gallardo GT2? Matech will „downgrade” their Fords? Larbre with Saleen-Mustang? What do you think?

P2 engines: you said HPD, Judd, Nisan, BMW. What about Porsche (911 GT2), Corvette, Aston (Vantage GT2) engines?

New questions:

-Rumours and whispers about Porsche planning to back in 2011-2012 with a new LMP1. What about the RS Spyder int he new LMP1 rules? It would be allowed by ACO for LMP1? If yes, why would build Porsche a new car?

-What is your idea about Kolles? Pull out? Back with grandfathered R15?

-Still not clear the 2011 preselections versus new rules, Preselection versus LM24 into a championship? How will these thing works together?

[broadrun96]

Hadn't heard anything that sounded like teams were interested in either the Vette (prob pretty bulky for an LMP install) or the 911 RSR (very different layout and would take a dedicated team to build everything from scratch) engines for their cars.
All of the KERS and whatever systems will be hybrid as they won't allow the F1 style button release on the wheel, most likely will be the engine be shut off when using the pitlane limiter though. They better make a stronger anti-spin if they use the electric motors for launch off pitlane, no engine noise to cover the wheel spin sounds. As for the engines, thought it sounded like Audi was decently sure of a V6 diesel while there was some rumors going around on here that Pug was considering a switch to a petrol hybrid?

Could see Kolles picking up the r15+ from Audi if the factory chose to not run a split season while testing the r18(couldnt remember the number?) But I wouldn't be surprised to see the Kolles effort backed off a little if he increases his presence at HRT and tries to steer them in the right direction.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Grandfathering: If Audi and Pug would stay with its old models with reduced speed, the newly built 2011 LMP-s would beat them? It’s clear? Now, they are much faster than any other. This speed advantage would enough for deliberation to find out what would be the situation after grandfathering. New petrol LMP1s would be significant faster than the currend, grandfathered diesels?

The restrictors + weight + fuel tank size that current LMP1 cars have to run in 2011, have not been fixed. The ACO promised to release this information before the 24LM race, but have not done it. Clearly, it is a difficult tasks to match all the engine options: LMP1 2011 with diesel, NA petrol, turbo petrol (with or without hybrid) vs LMP1 2010 diesel or petrol. However, the restrictions will be such that LMP1 2010 is slower than LMP1 2011.

The situation will the same as in 2005. Audi ran the R8 according to the LMP900 rules with heavy restrictions (LMP900 aero = single rollover, 950 kg, 80 liter fuel tank, 5% small air restrictor), but Pescarolo converted its car to the LMP900/LMP1 hybrid rules (LMP1 aero = double rollover, 900 kg, 90 liter fuel tank, bigger air restrictor). The Pescarolo C60 hybrid was much faster on the track, thanks to the rules, but lost the race because of bad reliability (gearbox).

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Hybrid thing: I understand the 2011 rules (pit line with only electric mode, etc.) but I didn’t undertsand clear Audi’s a Pug’s plan for 2011. They want to build a car for this rules instantly or just build a car with some energy recovery system additionally for their diesel engines? Peugeot said, it will be a diesel hybrid. Audi said (whispers) it will be a V6 TDI+KERS. It’s two completely different ways?

Okay, so you differentiate between parallel and series hybrid drivetrain. In that case, the rules suggest a series-parallel drivetrain. So direct connection from the combustion engine to the rear wheels.

There is some design freedom because the motor-generator(s) can be placed on the front axle (like Porsche 911 hybrid) or on the rear axle (connected to gearbox, like in F1, hybrid Zytek or Peugeot 908HY), but not on both (like Toyota Supra hybrid).

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

GT thing: The 2011 rule book clearly says only GT2 cars will be allowed? Not only just GT1 will go out? What is your opinion, what would do the current GT1 teams? JLOC will come with Gallardo GT2? Matech will „downgrade” their Fords? Larbre with Saleen-Mustang? What do you think?

Just read the ACO press release. "The ACO has decided to create a GT Endurance category with a single set of regulations valid between 2011 and 2013. These regulations are based on the current GT2 cars complying with the 2009 ACO rules with the following modifications".

Transforming a GT1 or GT3 car into a proper GT2 is a lot of work, because the rules are much stricter.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

P2 engines: you said HPD, Judd, Nisan, BMW. What about Porsche (911 GT2), Corvette, Aston (Vantage GT2) engines?

I said "Any GT2 engine can be used." However, the Corvette engine is too big, because the displacement for LMP2 is limited to 5.0 liter. I agree that the Porsche flat 6 might be less straightforward to use.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

New questions:

-Rumours and whispers about Porsche planning to back in 2011-2012 with a new LMP1. What about the RS Spyder int he new LMP1 rules? It would be allowed by ACO for LMP1? If yes, why would build Porsche a new car?

The consensus over here is that Porsche is not coming back to LMP1 as long as Audi is there.

If Porsche would come back, they definitely need to build a new car to make maximum use of the new rules. The RS Spyder was build for a much lower weight (750 kg vs 900 kg), there is no room to fit the hybrid system and presumably a coupe is the way to go with the new rules.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

-What is your idea about Kolles? Pull out? Back with grandfathered R15?

I don't think Audi is happy with the Kolles effort. It is not good for your PR if your car that won Le Mans 3 times, is driven by gentleman drivers that are dangerously slow.

A partnership such as Oreca-Peugeot seems much better.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

-Still not clear the 2011 preselections versus new rules, Preselection versus LM24 into a championship? How will these thing works together?

As in the past, if preselected, you can change your car as long as you stay in the same class. It is unclear whether a GT1 preselection can be converted in a GT endurance selection. Presumably not, because GT1 is gone in ALMS and pretty pathetic in LMS.

[JAG]

-Rumours and whispers about Porsche planning to back in 2011-2012 with a new LMP1. What about the RS Spyder int he new LMP1 rules? It would be allowed by ACO for LMP1? If yes, why would build Porsche a new car?

I don't see the RS Spyder going to P1 as Porsche are apparently reluctant to support the car any longer.

That being said in Racecar Engineering it was stated Porsche invested as many resources in the RS Spyders DI as the original engine design.

The DI was only completed when the RS Spyder had a handful of races left as a factory car.

IMO Porsche had already set in motion the ACO's move to P2 engine regs for 2011 P1's so their investment was safe for any possible future P1 and/or road going supercar.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JAG

IMO Porsche had already set in motion the ACO's move to P2 engine regs for 2011 P1's so their investment was safe for any possible future P1 and/or road going supercar.

The Porsche 918 using the DI Spyder V8, supporting this.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Welcome.
Coupes will no longer get the bigger air restrictor to accomodate air conditioning. On the other hand, the cockpit temperature rules will be relaxed, such that air conditioning might not be necessary.

From an aerodynamic point, the coupe shape is the way to go because it produces less drag for the same downforce (or more downforce for the same drag). With the smaller engines next year, this aero advantage is perhaps even more important.

Since last year, open cars no longer have an advantage in pitstops because only 2 mechanics are allowed to do the tyre change (instead of 4 in the past).
Mandatory for the new LMP1 and LMP2. The current LMP cars are allowed to run next year with extra restrictions. They don't need the fin.

I believe the fin can be connected to the rear wing, but a F-duct is explicitely forbidden.
Highly unlikely. The grandfathering will be such that the 2010 LMP1 cars will slower than the 2011 LMP1 cars. This is done as an incentive for manufacturers to build cars according to the new rules.
I don't understand how you differentiate between KERS and real hybrids. The hybrid system can only be operated with the accelerator pedal, i.e., a push-to-pass button is not allowed. So the system is always functioning as a way to increase power and/or decrease fuel consumption. In order to called a "hybrid" according the ACO, the car must be able to drive in the pitlane (400 m) at a speed of 60 km/h solely on the power of the hybrid system, so without the combustion engine.

The energy can be stored electrically (e.g., battery, supercap) or mechanically (e.g., flywheel). So the Williams Hybrid system that is used in the Porsche 911 hybrid is allowed.
Only petrol. Normally aspirated up to 5.0 liter and turbo charged up to 3.2 liter.

Any GT2 engine can be used. HPD, Judd, IES (Nissan), Sodemo (BMW) will (probably) provide engines as well.
No, only GT2.

The fin's mandatory for all LMP cars in 2011:

"The LMP1s having participated in at least one race organized
according to the ACO specifications in 2010 will be admitted in 2011
under the condition to keep the full specifications of the 2010
season.
No changes will be permitted in 2011 apart from those necessary for
the safety and for the adjustment of performances compared to the
2011 LMP1.
These mandatory modifications are :
· The fin on the rear bonnet;..."

[Captain Nemo]

Thanks for all answers you gave!

Can you tell me someone the ACO why hold on the GT2 class only? I think (it's just my opinion) GT2+GT3 field together would be much much better for teams, spectators, etc. What do you think, if ACO turn out GT1, why thinking only in GT2? In this way it would be just less GT field than 2010. No?

Another: What is your latest speculation & idea about Pug 909 and new Aston LMP? Open or close? Peugeot with HDi+FAP+Hybrid, and Aston with direct injection petrol V8, thats all, or you have more?

Another II: what is your idea about what will be the next newcomer big name (carmaker, brand, team) in prototype and when? Porsche, Toyota, Jag? What is your tip? You said Porsche will not come until Audi is here. It's logic. But what else?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Thanks for all answers you gave!

Can you tell me someone the ACO why hold on the GT2 class only? I think (it's just my opinion) GT2+GT3 field together would be much much better for teams, spectators, etc. What do you think, if ACO turn out GT1, why thinking only in GT2? In this way it would be just less GT field than 2010. No?

Another: What is your latest speculation & idea about Pug 909 and new Aston LMP? Open or close? Peugeot with HDi+FAP+Hybrid, and Aston with direct injection petrol V8, thats all, or you have more?

Another II: what is your idea about what will be the next newcomer big name (carmaker, brand, team) in prototype and when? Porsche, Toyota, Jag? What is your tip? You said Porsche will not come until Audi is here. It's logic. But what else?

GT: The ACO it seems is actually being respective of the input from the big 4 (Porsche, Ferrari, Chevy and Aston Martin) as it pertains to GT. This was all discussed when the FIA/SRO first announced its future (now current) plans for GT classes. The big 4 told the ACO and FIA/SRO what they wished to see GT evolve into.
As to GTE being less % wise on the grid for Le Mans in 2011 than what GT represented this year, I think not.


The Pototype question is still up in the air. Many things are yet to be clarified in the rules for them. It would seem that with a reduction in power that the coupe may be the way to go for its aero advantage, but...






L.P.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Can you tell me someone the ACO why hold on the GT2 class only? I think (it's just my opinion) GT2+GT3 field together would be much much better for teams, spectators, etc. What do you think, if ACO turn out GT1, why thinking only in GT2? In this way it would be just less GT field than 2010. No?

I think that the ACO objections against GT1 also apply to GT3. All the important manufacturers are endorsing GT2, only Nissan seems to have made the wrong choice by building a GT1 car.

With the Le Mans being part of the Le Mans Intercontinental Cup in 2011, the ACO has effectively created a prototype + GT world championship. I think that is a good guarantee for a strong and competitive field.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Another: What is your latest speculation & idea about Pug 909 and new Aston LMP? Open or close? Peugeot with HDi+FAP+Hybrid, and Aston with direct injection petrol V8, thats all, or you have more?

No clue. My guess would be Audi and Peugeot closed diesel hybrid and Aston Martin open petrol V8.

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Another II: what is your idea about what will be the next newcomer big name (carmaker, brand, team) in prototype and when? Porsche, Toyota, Jag? What is your tip? You said Porsche will not come until Audi is here. It's logic. But what else?

Lets hope that at one stage in the future, the Japanese constructors (Toyota, Honda) return. However, Toyota is said to go rally with Prodrive.

I don't think that Tata, who own Jaguar, has a sufficient motorsport budget to take on Audi and Peugeot.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Thanks for all answers you gave!

Can you tell me someone the ACO why hold on the GT2 class only? I think (it's just my opinion) GT2+GT3 field together would be much much better for teams, spectators, etc. What do you think, if ACO turn out GT1, why thinking only in GT2? In this way it would be just less GT field than 2010. No?

If anything the GT field will increase as teams who previously didn't want to go head to head with GT2 factories or run an expensive GT1 can now compete for a class win in GT AM.

[gwyllion]

Anybody remember that Howard-Chappell was complaining that the air restrictor break for coupes (which is worth around 10 bhp) will be dropped? http://www.racer.com/new-le-mans-rul...rticle/152328/

According to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez0jJJyPQzM#t=2m36s the air conditioning system of the Corvette only uses 1.8 bhp! And that is with the heat source (=engine) in front of the cockpit... Clearly the better aero of the coupe can compensate that tiny power loss.

[JAG]

At Le Mans it seems the 908 and Aston have had a pretty clear aero advantage over the respective diesel and petrol open top competition.

It'll be interesting to see if ORECA and Wirth go with a coupe.

Zytek may be concentrating on their engines and hybrid system but I really think they also need to go down the coupe route for P1 as their current car has never put in a decent Le Mans performance.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JAG

I don't see the RS Spyder going to P1 as Porsche are apparently reluctant to support the car any longer.

That being said in Racecar Engineering it was stated Porsche invested as many resources in the RS Spyders DI as the original engine design.

The DI was only completed when the RS Spyder had a handful of races left as a factory car.

IMO Porsche had already set in motion the ACO's move to P2 engine regs for 2011 P1's so their investment was safe for any possible future P1 and/or road going supercar.

From what I was led to believe by some well informed people . All the RS Spyder spares were bought by Cytosport , lock stock and barrell , and that Porsche do not intend for them to race after 2010 , at least with the RS Spyder .

[Speed-King]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/06/2...est/#continued

Potential new LMP2-engine?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/06/2...est/#continued

Potential new LMP2-engine?

I don't see an entry directly supported by Porsche!
But i do see one made by a privateer (with factory "blessing").

[Speed-King]

According to Marshall Pruetts latest column on www.speedtv.com , Riley are looking at building a new-rules LMP2-car for 2012.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

According to Marshall Pruetts latest column on www.speedtv.com , Riley are looking at building a new-rules LMP2-car for 2012.

That would be great. Maybe that would interest a few DP teams to come race in ALMS.

[JAG]

Regarding 2011 P1 engines this is an interesting quote.

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...=711&Itemid=49

“When we acquired the Lola AER, we soon became aware the engine was was designed to put out about 525 horsepower, but the class standard, set by Honda’s V8 (no, we’re not going to pretend it’s an Acura, just like we’re not going to pretend the AER powerplant is a Mazda), has changed, has become 565-575 horsepower. That meant we went into every race knowing it was overstressed. In a word, it was too light. So over this past winter, we got a whole new, stronger block – actually the head was strengthened, too.” Dyson Racing started this 2010 season believing its engine problems were behind it.

As the HPD 3.4l V8 is so good it will be interesting to see if teams like Rebellion can get their hands on the Porsche 3.4l V8.

[SebringMG]

In a way it is a sad reflection on AER and their recent P1 and P2 engines - they should be amongst the class leaders but have somehow managed to become the 'laughing' stock of the available engines.

It is a pity that the Judd V10 is seen as the pinnacle of the available P1 privateer motors as it is so obviously 'past it' is almost funny. All credit to Judd for constantly developing it and keeping it the best of the engines but really someone else should have stepped up to the plate by now.

I don't hold up much hope of the Judd V8 being able to compete next year either with the new regs as for the most part it has struggled this year versus the Zytek and HPD motors - The AER 2.0? I hope it does better next year but i really cannot see it based upon this years performance.

[joeb]

Hpd has talked about new engines for both p1 and p2 for next year, but with the success the hpd has had in p2 I hope they keep the 3.4 engine available for lease. I think the judd p2 engine has worked out pretty good Oak this season, but I don't know if they are planning on running it next year.

[gwyllion]

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjuly10.html has the meeting minutes of the last LMP constructors meeting. The discussion is mainly about next generation prototype rules (2014), which are no longer air restricted but fuel restricted (max fuel flow or limited fuel quantity for 24 hours). The concept of the 2014 rules seems to make a lot of sense: LMP1 coupe with low weight and completely free engine/drivetrain (775 kg) and LMP2 open with higher weight (850/900 kg).

This is interesting for next year as well:

Considering the orientation of the regulation (reduction of global energy), the trend will automatically go towards closed cars.

It seems someone brought up the fact that the diesels were producing a lot of smoke this year

Article 5.5.3
Considered by some competitors as not being under proper control by ACO.
ACO takes into account with intention to reinforce this subject.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjuly10.html has the meeting minutes of the last LMP constructors meeting.

Mike notes "One does wonder why the Renault F1 Team was one of the participants...". Perhaps even more interesting (for those of us not totally 'in the loop') are some notable, but hoped for, absentees (Toyota/Ferrari/Lotus immediately spring to mind).

Very interesting to see we're heading back towards a fuel formula..........worked rather well last time around.

[Mike_Wooshy]

no Toyota were there via Aoki Norio ....