The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Articus]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

A video of the TS030 apparently made during the last tests at the Lausitzring shows the car from the front-end and back-end with the team practicing pit stops.

If this is the high-downforce (or "sprint") package, no major change can be noticed except for the steeper "lip" at the back-end as already pointed out.

Strangely, the team is practicing refuelling from the right side of the car, but one should rather expect them to refuel from the left side at the São Paulo track which runs counter-clock wise...

Seeing this video makes me miss the pit stop competitions that the ALMS used to have. Really exciting stuff to have a free for all with those factory GT teams showing the protos how it was done.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Well spotted.

I used to have a slightly different take on your sig. Back when Keke and Mika were tops, I used to say,
To Finish First, first you have to be Finnish.


sorry off topic...

[Acid09]

I think Toyota simply fitted the low-downforce front ended for the pitstop practice.

They didn't even post photos of the test and then they let a TV crew film the new parts close-up? Very unlikely...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I think Toyota simply fitted the low-downforce front ended for the pitstop practice.

They didn't even post photos of the test and then they let a TV crew film the new parts close-up? Very unlikely...

Did you not see the changed design in the diveplanes? The fenders are more upright as well. The rear may be high downforce like the extended endplates, but maybe cuts drag with the lower inner endplate? We'll see soon.

[Articus]

I mean there are differences but it is not night and day...so the car has very similar low df configuration. A low df trim can quickly become high downforce by raising wing angles and changing diveplanes. Its not the most efficient way but high downforce isn't that efficient. Im not suggesting TMG with the vast engineering resources did this but it looks like a pretty small update.

This isn't Monza F1 cars vs Monaco F1 cars which is probably the biggest change of aero package we see in a single season.

[avvelenamento]

Agree with Articus. Little changes to give more downforce to an however low downforce setting. I'll be cynic but it seems that TMG spent 60 days to just change a bit diveplanes and put some winglets.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Agree with Articus. Little changes to give more downforce to an however low downforce setting. I'll be cynic but it seems that TMG spent 60 days to just change a bit diveplanes and put some winglets.

Good , attention to detail . That's what wins Le Mans .

[chernaudi]

I can understand some winging at TMG for not putting more work into their car, but I highly doubt that Audi will be showing up in Brazil with any major new bits, either.

Why pour countless millions of dollars into a car for a few tenths of a second a lap when said car will be obsolescent via major rules changes in only a few month's time? Sports car racing isn't like F1, where teams more or less have to spend those millions of dollars to keep up in a season.

Typically, even for big factories, what they have after LM is largely what they have the rest of the season.

Toyota's package might not be fully optimal compared to the Audi R18 sprint package, but Audi settled on that package at the start of the season, and I can't see them making any major changes. Also, most of the changes that Toyota made for the TS030 last year post LM was used for development for the '13 car.

In any case, I would have to question why TMG, even if Toyota gave them a F1-team's budget and told them to spend it at will, would dump that much money into something that would become a money pit in a couple of months with the end of the WEC season? It's not like they can, or would even want to, run the '13 cars in '14 anyways.

[avvelenamento]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Good , attention to detail . That's what wins Le Mans .

TMG... win... le mans...

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Picture from Sao Paulo

That is a really cool photo.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

That is a really cool photo.

+1

[TF110]

More upright front fenders, with a new deeper splitter and diveplanes is all the front changed last season. And Audi ran the same changes to LeMans from Silverstone (aside from the 'longtail'). Theres not much to change except maybe the exit behind the front wheels and a higher inner rear wing endplate. Those were the changes last year for Toyota.

[chernaudi]

I doubt that Toyota will change much aside from what has been shown. And the R18s will look the same as they did at Silverstone and Spa. It's not worthwhile for Audi or Toyota to be spending boat-loads of R&D money on lame duck projects unless it pays dividends for the '14 cars.

Which, with as massive as those rules changes are, there's probably minimal benefit for looking at much of the R18 or TS030 for what will be a clean sheet design for clean sheet rules.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I can understand some winging at TMG for not putting more work into their car, but I highly doubt that Audi will be showing up in Brazil with any major new bits, either.

Why pour countless millions of dollars into a car for a few tenths of a second a lap when said car will be obsolescent via major rules changes in only a few month's time? Sports car racing isn't like F1, where teams more or less have to spend those millions of dollars to keep up in a season.

Typically, even for big factories, what they have after LM is largely what they have the rest of the season.

Toyota's package might not be fully optimal compared to the Audi R18 sprint package, but Audi settled on that package at the start of the season, and I can't see them making any major changes. Also, most of the changes that Toyota made for the TS030 last year post LM was used for development for the '13 car.

In any case, I would have to question why TMG, even if Toyota gave them a F1-team's budget and told them to spend it at will, would dump that much money into something that would become a money pit in a couple of months with the end of the WEC season? It's not like they can, or would even want to, run the '13 cars in '14 anyways.

Oh come on! I checkout for an hour or 2. I am not suggesting Toyota is not putting any work into their car. Visually the car looks similar to Le Mans spec. TMG is a world class engineering organization. Everything they do is all the business!! That car is not a lack of effort. It would have taken the same amount of time to develop a new aero as it would have to prove to themselves that only small amount of adjustment was necessary to the package!! I know a little bit of what they are doing and it is not simple by any stretch of the imagination. These engineers are passionate about the sport and when they aren't putting updates on the car they are at the wind tunnel or on computers prototyping and simulating all of there ideas. Some of these guys go home and are still thinking about the car. In my eyes just putting a second car on the track is an effort in itself let alone updates to the first car.

[Mechanic Z]

My older brother came across these top secret Toyota development designs on the internet today:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7303206...n/photostream/

another link

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Articus

Oh come on! I checkout for an hour or 2. I am not suggesting Toyota is not putting any work into their car. Visually the car looks similar to Le Mans spec. TMG is a world class engineering organization. Everything they do is all the business!! That car is not a lack of effort. It would have taken the same amount of time to develop a new aero as it would have to prove to themselves that only small amount of adjustment was necessary to the package!! I know a little bit of what they are doing and it is not simple by any stretch of the imagination. These engineers are passionate about the sport and when they aren't putting updates on the car they are at the wind tunnel or on computers prototyping and simulating all of there ideas. Some of these guys go home and are still thinking about the car. In my eyes just putting a second car on the track is an effort in itself let alone updates to the first car.

They're already on a restricted budget, and they have 2014 to consider. Audi may have a larger budget, but they have 2014 to consider.

Not much from the '13 cars can be used on the '14 cars. The only reason why in F1 a lot of development takes place all though the season is because since 2009, the aero and chassis rules have largely been static. The 2014 rules changes there will be as, if not much more significant than the 2009 formula.

Audi and Toyota are already working on their 2014 cars, and unless it'll help with those developments, they're probably not gonna do jack now to the cars. IE, the way they unload at Sao Paulo, is the way they'll be at Bahrain in late November.

Did I expect massive changes to the Toyota? Not really, because of the restricted budget and the fact that the TS030 is basically a dead end development-wise; the car will basically be banned from competition after 1/1/14.

Massive changes for Audi? Again, no. They settled on a basic sprint race package back before Sebring (what the #2 car ran there), and I can't see them devoting many more resources to that car beyond basic chassis set up changes. Unless they, like Toyota, are able to learn much for '14, it's not a worthwhile investment. The R18 is also basically a dead end for development, because it'll essentially be banned from racing in the WEC after 1/1/14 as well (all current diesel or hybrid LMP1s won't be allowed to race in '14 without waivers/major arm twisting applied to the ACO/FIA technical delegates and rules makers).

Both cars are basically dead ends and lame ducks, and I can't blame Audi or TMG for not wanting to put any more money or resources that they don't have to into them. 2014 is basically a clean slate for the rules, and to best make use of those rules, everyone will need a clean sheet of paper design. Only salvation for the R18 or TS030 would've been the ALMS if not for the ALMS/GA merger resulting in USCR, who don't want LMP1 cars to race there, or the LMS, which is the same deal, where the rules makers don't include a LMP1 class due to lack of demand.

IE, the Audi R18 and the TS030 will basically be museum pieces after the end of November, so why Audi or Toyota would want to spent tons more R&D money on them is beyond me, even if they're trying to win races of championships. And it's not like that any upgrades made to the Toyota, minimal or not, would cause a major shift in the balance of power--Audi will likely still be much faster than Toyota the rest of the season, and Toyota will have to hope to get lucky with strategy to make a race of it.

[Articus]

Is this in response to a specific thing that I mentioned in my earlier post? I appreciate the perspective but I'm just trying to see if we're on the same page? or not?

[TF110]

Lol, thats quite an explanation for cars that don't need much changes made. Shorter front fenders, new diveplanes and a deeper splitter. They already have the double endplate wing, cutting the inner endplate shorter reduces drag. No need to reinvent the wheel, right?!

[Japanese Samurai]

Hisatake Murata (Toyota Hybrid project chief) interview by Japanese Autosport magazine.

*About BoP between petrol and diesel.
-We claim that the thermal efficiency difference of petrol and diesel is 12%.
-So, we are asking "Let us use a hybrid system freely."
-We have improved the power-weight ratio of hybrid system.

*About 2013 LM24.
-Our target lap time was 3min 20sec.
-We were thinking the aero device as important. We had a critical aero device. We had checked the performance by the simulation and the test. However, finally we had dropped the parts by the lack of durability. We knew that the target time was impossible at the time.

*About rest of this season.
-We introduce a powerful engine instead of the sacrifice of reliability.
-We introduce the aero device of high-downforce spec.
-We have also improved hybrid system control.

*About 2014 season.
-We have begun durability test of the 2014 system from May.
-We have to exceed Audi 12% in L/D. This is a high hurdle for us.
-It is our targets to develop the hybrid system which covers 12% of efficiency difference between petrol and diesel, and to dedicate the system within the minimum weight.
-About Porshe, the rumour says that they will introduce DI turbo and hybrid. But we have confidence in the hybrid system. We think Porshe could introduce only the table of 4MJ. We are ahead of them.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Hisatake Murata (Toyota Hybrid project chief) interview by Japanese Autosport magazine.

-So, we are asking "Let us use a hybrid system freely."

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

TMG... win... le mans...

They will ..... sure of it . But they to fund it more .

[avvelenamento]

*About 2013 LM24.
-Our target lap time was 3min 20sec


Me too would like to have a car faster that anyone else, spending half of competitor's budget.

[Aysedasi]

Money doesn't always buy you everything - most of the time, but not always......

[Flo aus N]

It would be interesting what this aerodynamic device(s) would have been. If i got the interview in the right way, he says that they will use it or them in the sprint races ? So it will be interesting how fast they will be, especially in a straight line. Could it be a flexible wing solution.

What i know ( and i have it quite good in hand ), is that they have a very radically device, made of Carbon Fiber and Aramid. This could be a flexible solution. This would explain, why they were only able to reach 320-325 kmh of Topspeed, instead of 330-340 kmh, which were shown be some calculations of their 2013 car and which were claimed by Alex Wurz. So its preetty a shame that they were not able to use this device(s?)

The reasons, why they went for a low drag Bodykit for the rest of the WEC are pretty obvious for me. The last year, the Toyota lacked of 10 kmh of Topspeed with the high downforce package. In Fuji the Audis were 15 kmh faster in a straight line. So its quite hard to gain extra time with your highdownforce package if you dont have the speed in a straight line. Especially in overtaking slover GTE or LMP2, because they were only 5 kmh faster than LMP2. Thats the same reason why Peugeot went to the last ILMV Races with ther Le Mans package ( and won every race with it), because it works better in traffic and lets be honest: Under normal circumstances, the WEC is done für Toyota, so they have one big goal: winning in Fuji with their car.

And to win Fuji, you need an aerodynmik with less drag . Yes, i know that they won last year, but Audi was sandbagging after Le Mans and their new R18 etron quattro is a heck faster than 2012, especially in straight line speed. ( In Spa it was 7-8 kmh compared to 2012 and in Le Mans something between 10 and 12 kmh).

[Japanese Samurai]

He says that they do not introduce the dropped aero device in the remaining races.