[WEC] Toyota Hypercar Discussion

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by KlBD

I have to say I disagree with the sentiment that Toyota's driver stable is lacking, considering they have an entire fleet of Super GT/Super Formula drivers that domestically compete in cars which are now essentially equivalent to the Le Mans top class in pace and weight, in what is arguably an even more difficult series to succeed in with open tire development and draconian success ballast, while regularly moonlighting in an open wheel series that is probably only second to Indycar in terms of non-F1 single seaters. I'm still disappointed that Nick Cassidy and Sacha Fenestraz are in Formula E rather than showing what they could do in a hypercar.

You may ask, then why did we not see more Super GT drivers in ACO series and vice versa? My view on that is for drivers, having full time programs in a country and culture so far removed from their own is not an easy choice to make, with the exception of longtime transplants like Ronnie Quintarelli or JP Oliveira, or guys like Kobayashi that went all in on F1.

1) If these amazing drivers cannot or will not make the move to LMH, then their driver roster is lacking. They effectively don't count for the purpose of TMG in ACO racing. It brings to mind the ill fate of Ishiura, who tested in the TS030 (or was it TS040?) and IIRC he almost put his back out trying to drive it at pace.

2) Sorry to say it as an avid SGT/SF fan, but the quality of drivers is lower than WEC LMH/LMDH, and probably IMSA too (a more relevant comparison as a national series). Success ballast actually masks this slightly - in the same way that the best drivers get pegged back, the worst drivers are pulled up.

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by J Jay

1) If these amazing drivers cannot or will not make the move to LMH, then their driver roster is lacking. They effectively don't count for the purpose of TMG in ACO racing. It brings to mind the ill fate of Ishiura, who tested in the TS030 (or was it TS040?) and IIRC he almost put his back out trying to drive it at pace.

2) Sorry to say it as an avid SGT/SF fan, but the quality of drivers is lower than WEC LMH/LMDH, and probably IMSA too (a more relevant comparison as a national series). Success ballast actually masks this slightly - in the same way that the best drivers get pegged back, the worst drivers are pulled up.

Probably the average level of drivers in the Japanese domestic series is not as high when you include the backmarkers in those series, especially since there are quite a few older drivers in both those series, or the fringe guys that get sent to the teams on Dunlop/Advan tires, but I don't think no top end talent exists to pick from, either. I thought at the time they started sending Hirakawa over to ACO series that he was the right candidate if they couldn't get Nick Cassidy into the hypercar, and I think they have selected the best candidate this time too with Ritomo Miyata.

Lately I've started to think more that sometimes the difference in level of driver is not always so big depending on what they are driving, but the insular nature of Japanese racing and the culture gap is a bigger hurdle to overcome going both ways than western drivers going back and forth across the Atlantic. The opportunities for more seat time in diverse machinery across competitive series are probably better in the western world.

[ederss7]

Any reason why Toyota uses the numbers 7 and 8 on its cars? Lucky numbers like Joest or something else?

[Matador]

Originally Posted by J Jay

1) If these amazing drivers cannot or will not make the move to LMH, then their driver roster is lacking. They effectively don't count for the purpose of TMG in ACO racing. It brings to mind the ill fate of Ishiura, who tested in the TS030 (or was it TS040?) and IIRC he almost put his back out trying to drive it at pace.

2) Sorry to say it as an avid SGT/SF fan, but the quality of drivers is lower than WEC LMH/LMDH, and probably IMSA too (a more relevant comparison as a national series). Success ballast actually masks this slightly - in the same way that the best drivers get pegged back, the worst drivers are pulled up.

I mean.... Lotterer and Nakajima are both Super GT drivers. I'd venture to say the creme de la creme in SGT stand toe to toe or perhaps above anybody in LMP2/GT

[Matador]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Any reason why Toyota uses the numbers 7 and 8 on its cars? Lucky numbers like Joest or something else?

LOL "Lucky" 7

[RL17]

Originally Posted by Matador

LOL "Lucky" 7

Both lucky in Japan and vacated by Peugeot after 2011

[ederss7]

Number 7 last win was in 2003 with Bentley. Audi and Peugeot have never won with their 7. Toyota only once. I didn't know they were lucky numbers in Japan.

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by Matador

I mean.... Lotterer and Nakajima are both Super GT drivers. I'd venture to say the creme de la creme in SGT stand toe to toe or perhaps above anybody in LMP2/GT

Right - Lotterer, Treluyer, and Duval all came out of SGT/Super Formula, the first two having spent roughly 10 years competing in Japan and ~6 for Duval. Maybe since the Japanese domestic series' last crop of world class talent moved on they're in a bit of a transition period, but if Toyota wants a place to farm up some future hypercar talent, GT500 seems like a good fascimile for hypercars if they're not going to explore IMSA.

[Gerard C]

Yes both 7 and 8 are supposed to bring luck in Japan… Specially the 7.

[S griffin]

TBH, it's easily recognisable branding wise for them to be 7 and 8. People would instantly be familiar with it having used it for so long

[Matador]

Originally Posted by S griffin

TBH, it's easily recognisable branding wise for them to be 7 and 8. People would instantly be familiar with it having used it for so long

Yes, I think so. I don't even think they moved to using the number 1 after winning the drivers championship (Except in 2015, and that didn't bode so well for them).

[Gerard C]

https://www.lingualift.com/blog/luck...numbers-japan/ I wonder if there's a law about importing a squirrel from France to Germany, tho…

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

https://www.lingualift.com/blog/luck...numbers-japan/

There have been a few cases of Japanese drivers / riders refusing to use #4. Satoru Nakajima refused to carry 4 on his 1986 F3000 Ralt, so John Nielsen carried that number instead, giving Nakajima race no.5.

Nakajima left the team before the end of the season, and Nielsen, having had a fairly poor year, thought that there might be something in race #4 being unlucky after all, so at the final race of the season, swapped to #5!

The link Gerard posted suggests the #4 problem to the Japanese may be t due to the Japanese words for 'four' and 'death' having the same pronunciation ('shi'?).

This is the same reason, incidentally, that both Satoru Nakajima and Ukyo Katayama never carried #4 when they raced for Tyrrell; they both used #3. (Katayama also used #18 at Tyrrell

Australian Race and Rally 'legend' Colin Bond changed his number to 8 from 4. The request to change it came from his Japanese tyre supplier Toyo.

Motorcycle Champ Wayne Gardner used the #4 in touring cars in Australia when he gave up bikes. In 1997, Gardner swapped numbers with team-mate Neil Crompton (7) on the advice of a Japanese friend . Gardner won his first round wearing the number 7. Actually it seems strange that having ridden for Honda for a couple of years with the #4, no-one told him of the Japanese superstition.

Sorry if thats a bit off topic, but thought it interesting re Japan and numbers used / not used.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by E.B

Sorry if thats a bit off topic, but thought it interesting re Japan and numbers used / not used.

Good news, Dave, thanks. Don't find it OT tho…

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Matador

I mean.... Lotterer and Nakajima were both Super GT drivers. I'd venture to say the creme de la creme in SGT stand toe to toe or perhaps above anybody in LMP2/GT

Yes, as were Treluyer, Jarvis, Makowiecki, and a few others. All foreign too, except for Nakajima, so it doesn't really answer the question of promoting top domestic talent to LMH (although I take the point that many Japanese drivers would not consider it a promotion).

I'm also of the opinion that the GT500 field isn't as strong as it was a few years ago. I dare say that right now, the fastest handful of GT/LMP2 drivers would be on-pace with their GT500 counterparts, and more used to lengthy (6+ hour) endurance races.

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by J Jay

I dare say that right now, the fastest handful of GT/LMP2 drivers would be on-pace with their GT500 counterparts, and more used to lengthy (6+ hour) endurance races.

This is probably a big part of Toyota's thinking when it comes to selecting their driver lineups - they need to balance the PR needs of winning and promoting homegrown talent, so find something like 1 or 2 top domestic drivers per car, which they have, and fill the rest of the seats with the best available drivers that already have plenty of prototypes experience, which they have also done.

[kvenom]

Akio's public statement on the BoP was much more restrained than his internal interview with Toyota Press:

Prior to the race, after Ferrari scored a lockout of the front row in Hyperpole, Toyoda gave an interview (in Japanese) to his company’s internal Toyota Times magazine, and it was clear just how unimpressed he had been by the BoP change.

“I was thinking, ‘are you really willing to go that far just to let another team win?’” he said. “All of us in the team think that way, and I think there are possibly many fans who feel the same way.

“What we are doing is a ‘sport in which athletes do battle’. This is the ‘sport’ in ‘motorsport’. What I want to say is, it is not ‘motor-politics’ that simply exposes the sheer stubbornness of each manufacturer! But watching qualifying, I thought, ‘We’ve lost to politics'.

Some definite "threatening to quit" vibes there.

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/ne...-run/10485881/

[JT240Z]

Another indication that BoP IS too political.

[Sodemo]

I feel their pain. The BOP change was unfair in my opinion. I wanted to see another team win at lemans, but not at the expense of “the sport” in terms of fair competition. I don’t blame Toyota for being extremely ****ed off.

[S griffin]

At the end of the day they knew it was going to be tough either way. It was a hard blow when they changed the BOP and it will always be a controversial part of LM. However we got a close competition at the end of the day and I feel Ferrari deserved the win. Toyota will just have to get their heads down and try and work out what to do next. There's still more races to be won

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I don’t blame Toyota for being extremely ****ed off.

Me neither. But as all teams they've signed a contract. Changes calculations remain secret, they must not comment, moan, cry, swear, not even talk about this. One-sided contrat? Surely. Dura lex, sed lex.


Still wainting for a real Supermegahypercar category, restritions setted up at the minimum, engineers show your best, drivers flat out and que le meilleur gagne. This would be sport, not show. IMO.

[kvenom]

It should be "Use a cost cap, give a performance window, build the best car, and see who wins"

[KlBD]

Just so long as we all sign a waiver beforehand acknowledging that we will not put on our surprised faces when it declines like every open class before it

[Matador]

Originally Posted by kvenom

It should be "Use a cost cap, give a performance window, build the best car, and see who wins"

This

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Still wainting for a real Supermegahypercar category, restritions setted up at the minimum, engineers show your best, drivers flat out and que le meilleur gagne. This would be sport, not show. IMO.

Because this is not going to happen in today's fiscal environment. Then again, it might just end up being closed cockpit F1.


Maybe mandate that they are street legal and have a minimum 100 car production run?

[chernaudi]

I see both sides of the coin here. Yes, it can be argued that the ACO "lied" or backtracked on what they originally said. But as fans, we're reminded of some of the fine print on our tickets: "Card/line up and other details may be subject to change". And we're in an age where a person's or organization's word isn't worth the breath used to utter it and contracts and even rule books aren't worth the paper they're printed on.


Same thing applies to sanctioning bodies with rules. They can also be subject to change at any time. The accusations that sanctioning bodies' rule books are written in pencil and invisible ink? And subject to interpretation at any time they feel like it?


Toyota aren't new to the game, have been known to bend (or even break) the rules themselves, and BOP is always a somewhat political game, even when played behind closed doors. This Toyota also should know well, as they also played that game in the past.


Yes, I'd argue that BOP should go away, but, one, we'd be back to what happened with Audi with the R8 and initially the R10 when there were no big factory teams around. And two, we risk being back to the runaway spending of LMP1. IE, either one team will dominate, or we're back to an unsustainable model that'll last a few years and die and the cycle repeats.


NASCAR and the SRO created BOP basically as we know it, and that genie is out of the bottle and isn't going back in.


But you also have to remember that old phrase "the Lord givth, the Lord taketh away". And with an organization like the ACO or the FIA, read the fine print and note that rules and other things are subject to change at basically any time.